Getting a little sick of it all

I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found 1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide. This
last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order had
2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do a
pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.

He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted it
or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P did
not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not buy
the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him talk
to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and immediately
hung up the phone!

This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered his
phone # in to my call rejection.

Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month. No
telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.

What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.

Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull**** indicator
was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
should be a simple yes or no answer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a copy
from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "MRQB"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Do you have a 337 on that repair.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To: "TAC"
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "TAC"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.

This message is from:

Please send all the spec's thank you.

Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?

I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic looking
at their planes.

I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
you've lost nothing by walking away.

IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves to be
parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit looking for
a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:iix1c.470784$na.1115474@attbi_s04...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic
looking
at their planes.

I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
you've lost nothing by walking away.

IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves to
be
parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:17:11 -0800, "MRQB" wrote:


Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found 1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.

I don't think it is just the aviation industry, I think it is a new
mentality that we are seeing. About 4 weeks ago I put a contract on a
house for almost a half million dollars. I made arrangements for the
next week to have the house inspected, scheduled it with the owners
and real-estate people. We all agreed on what day/time to meet. Well
we all got there and the owner refused to let our inspector do
anything. He wasn't allowed to flip a light switch, move curtains to
check outlets.... NOTHING. I looked at my realtor and told her to
terminate the contract right then. The next day the owner's realtor
called and asked if we could try again. I laid down my terms and told
him that I also wanted a structural engineer to look at the property
and gave him the engineers' available schedule. He called back and
told me the owner would only allow him to come look at the house on X
day which happened to be one of the 2 days the engineer was not
available that whole week. I told him that was not acceptable and
that there will be no further negotiations and the deal was off.

I guess some people just don't want my money!!! Odd.

Scott

It can get frustrating. I've been looking since October for "the" plane.
Found some that were close. Never found an ideal candidate. Remember -
everything is a compromise. How MUCH you want to compromise is up to you...

Most sellers understand the need for an independent prebuy. A few (and I can
understand this point as well) really don't want their plane to disappear
for awhile. In this case, most will offer to have YOUR A&P come to them (as
most will). Most also want to be present when the inspection is done, just
to make sure that your A&P isn't some clown with a screwdriver (it
happens...).

After a frustration or two, I got to the point where I'd just walk if they
didn't want to do business with me. Fortunately, I didn't walk away from any
perfect airplanes.

I've also been amazed at how screwed up the paperwork is. Found one that
was bought 3 years ago - the bill of sale nor registration had ever been
filed. When I got the FAA records, *I* found out that the lien had never
cleared from the PREVIOUS owner - 7 years earlier. FAA wanted a different
signature on the release form. Other planes were in really decent shape -
except for the 6 major repairs like spliced spar, reskin work, etc., that
was done without log entry or 337...

My plane that I just bought this week literally was handed to me. Actually,
my "network" found it and made some initial queries. For once, it was a
decent-condition, all paperwork checked out, no-lien airplane that all came
together within 3-4 days. I jumped on it.

Keep looking. Some on this list took 8-10 months to find a good candidate.
For a 172, you can be picky, because there are so many 1000's of them out
there.

Carl
"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found
1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
This
last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
had
2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do
a
pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.

He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted
it
or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
did
not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
buy
the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
talk
to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
immediately
hung up the phone!

This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
his
phone # in to my call rejection.

Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
No
telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.

What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.

Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
indicator
was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
should be a simple yes or no answer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------

The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
copy
from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "MRQB"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Do you have a 337 on that repair.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To: "TAC"
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "TAC"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.

This message is from:

Please send all the spec's thank you.

Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?

In article ,
MRQB wrote:
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just

I ran into some real nuts while I was looking. I finally bought my
plane from a real nice guy. Keep looking, you'll find the right seller
and the right plane. Look at it this way -- when a jerk tries to sell
you a dog, you'll have double warning to stay away, and no qualms about
hanging up on him!

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

I agree with Jay. Anyone who won't let a mechanic look at it is hiding
something. Just thinking about it, 8000 hours for a 28 year old airplane is
285 hours per year. Everything I have ever read has said that a highly
active pilot only flies 50-60 hours per year. This one has been a worker.
I would suspect that someone went off a runway and collapsed the nose gear
about 700 hours ago which lead to the firewall repair ( what could you do to
a firewall other than replace it? ) and just happens to be detailed in the
missing log pages. In my airplane searches, I have found that about all
that is available in the winter ( non vfr ) months are the ones that didn't
sell in the summer. You might try your local paper, our local paper
www.oregonian.com ( listing 606 )seems to be a good place to find some
pretty good deals that aren't noticed by most of the aviation community.

Good Luck in your search.



"MRQB" wrote in message
...
Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit looking
for
a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:iix1c.470784$na.1115474@attbi_s04...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not
trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to
be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic
looking
at their planes.

I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
you've lost nothing by walking away.

IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves
to
be
parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

MRQB wrote:
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

snip

Rules for buying anything:

1. If it looks like a really great deal and the seller isn't someone you
know that owes you big time, be suspicious, very suspicious.

The brother-in-law that you got the great job for might want to return
the favor, but why would a stranger offer you a "great deal"?

2. If the seller trys to pressure you in any way with things like "only a
fool would pass up this opportunity" or "I have three other buyers so you
have to act now", run away.

If it is such a great deal, there will be lots of potential buyers; why
would the seller care who buys it?

3. If the seller has any problems with you or a third party inspecting
anything related to the item, run away.

People with something to hide don't want you to look too closely.

4. If the seller "just can't seem to find right now" any documentation that
should accompany the sale, run away.

It takes time to prepare phoney documents.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

It's kind of funny. I've owned three airplanes in the last twenty
years...and didn't get a pre-buy inspection on any of 'em.

It was certainly stupid, but it's not quite as bad as it sounds.

The first one was the risky one...I'd been grounded (lack of funds) for
almost eight years, and all of a sudden I could not only afford to start
flying again but could afford my own airplane. I saw a nice '65 Cessna 150
at the local airport with a for-sale sign in it. Got stars in my eyes
(more money than sense) and called the owner.

Jeeze. Didn't even go for a test flight. Just borrowed the logs and pored
over them. Didn't really know *what* I was looking for. I'd never owned a
plane before, didn't really know about STCs or Form 337s or anything. I
went through the logs looking for stuff like major reconstruction. Found
one (apparently minor) wing repair. Owner had claimed that the plane had
never been a trainer, but the first several owners were places like "Smith
Flying Service." So I knew not to believe THAT claim, but everything else
seemed OK.

It did me well, for the two years I owned it. A small problem with master
solenoids going bad several times. Annuals ran ~$500 (mid '80s). Sold it
for just $400 less than I'd bought it for. New owner didn't get a pre-buy,
either, but when the engine has 1500 hours, he probably just counted on it
going bad. I hear it finally got a new engine two owners later.

My second and third airplanes were special cases. The second one was a
co-worker who'd completed a full rebuild of a basket-case Stinson
(including engine rebuild) just 200 hours earlier. Since I was buying half
his interest in the airplane, I figured there wasn't much risk. I ended up
basically just passing wrenches for him, when it came time to work on the
plane.

My third (and current) airplane didn't get a pre-buy either...used
homebuilt. But the A&P who had been doing the annuals on this Fly Baby had
ALSO been doing the annuals of my club Fly Baby (and he was also a former
co-worker). He told me that if I *didn't* buy that airplane, I was nuts.
Hard to argue, when, the previous year, he'd finished the annual inspection
notation with "This is the best Fly Baby I've ever seen."

And of course, the next year, I had a bad exhaust valve at annual
time... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

I'm not defending this guy but the knife cuts both ways. When I was selling
my cherokee 140 (a plane with damage history of which I was up front about),
I let potential buyers take it to their mechanics and it always worked out
the same. They'd come back and say "my mechanic said this and that so come
down 5k or I don't want it." That wouldn't have even been bad had they come
back with something reasonable or even consistant. Anyway, after 2-3 times
of that you get reluctant to go through it again.

Ultimately you have to realize that you're buying a 25-30 year old machine
which is almost always going to have something wrong with it. That said, it
still sounds like you made the right decision. Besides you should be
looking at cherokees not those high wing monstrosities ;-)


-Brian
N33431


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:iix1c.470784$na.1115474@attbi_s04...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic
looking
at their planes.

I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
you've lost nothing by walking away.

IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves to
be
parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"