Getting a little sick of it all

"Robert Bates" wrote:
...Everything I have ever read has said that a highly
active pilot only flies 50-60 hours per year.

Really? I thought that 50-60 hours per year would be more like
"average."

I fly about 120 hr/yr and still don't consider myself "highly active."
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Regarding not flying for a while...

When I bought my PA28-140 I noticed a 1 year or so gap where no flying was
done (or at least, nothing logged such as oil changes, 100 hour inspections,
etc). It turns out this occurred about the time the infamous main spar AD
came out which mandated pulling wings and other expensive procedures. A lot
of PA28 owners went into a holding pattern on this one (rather than
immediately drop mucho $$) because it was so onerous (the AD was later
rescinded but the piper service bulletin remained). I don't know for sure
that this is what happened, but it's a plausible explanation for the
inactivity (the previous owner didn't offer up this explanation, I put 2 and
2 together after looking through the logs).

But the point about things corroding during inactivity is valid. So before
I closed the deal, and after the prepurchase came up clean, I verified that
at least the "anti-corrosion" service bulletin had been complied with. This
one required pulling the fuel tanks, inspecting the main spar, and applying
an anti-corrosive. The point being that in some cases, you can do a little
homework and be reasonably sure that things are clean.

To MRQB: hang in there, don't let some bozo spoil the fun of looking for
your ride.

blue skies,
mark

"Matthew P. Cummings" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 04:48:48 -0800, MRQB wrote:

Yes he is a real A & P, IA and is the only one I trust out of a handful
that
I have meet and interviewed around here.

If he told you that because the plane did not fly for 2 years and that's
why it had missing logs he's daft, find another A&P. That's most
definitely not missing logs. A plane can have years where there's lot of
work logged, others when it's mostly oil changes and an annual, and if
they don't fly it and don't get an annual then nothing gets logged, but
the amount of entries does not determine if it's missing. Now if you saw
that the pages were gone, the tach numbers don't add up, that's more
likely to be missing logs.

Now, it's still debatable as to whether the plane should have been
purchased without it's flying in 2 years, often you'll find problems
cropping up due to the inactivity and hidden corrosion. You were probably
better off passing on it anyhow.

Okay, then. Bring your IA when the seller's A&P does the inspection,
then offer the guy $5K less than his asking price to take care of the
missed cover ups.

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 04:48:48 -0800, "MRQB" wrote:

Yes he is a real A & P, IA and is the only one I trust out of a handful that
I have meet and interviewed around here.


"Stu Gotts" wrote in message
.. .
WTF? That's not missing logs! Makes me think there something else to
this story that you're not telling. Was your mechanic a real A&P or
some schmuck that works on his own plane? If that's the case, I'd
tell YOU to pound salt, too!

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 03:08:44 -0800, "MRQB" wrote:

His explanation for the missing two years was he did not fly it could not
afford to. The tach times and Hobbs times were consistent with the 2 year
skip after last annual. Prior to the skip it looked like the airplane was
flown like 30 somthing hours then the logs stop. No logs entrys for 2
years
(no pages missing) tach and Hobbs time resume at an annual 2 years later
at
arround 30 hours from the last annual with a little list of minor repairs
like nose gear strut seal, breaks, tires ect.

Either the wife is now against moving, or he is having seller's remourse...
Well known - just like buyer's remourse...
He will not sell the house in the end because he will keep finding ways to
sabotage the deal...
denny
"SD" sdatverizondot.net@ wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:17:11 -0800, "MRQB" wrote:


Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not
found 1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.

I don't think it is just the aviation industry, I think it is a new
mentality that we are seeing. About 4 weeks ago I put a contract on a
house for almost a half million dollars. I made arrangements for the
next week to have the house inspected, scheduled it with the owners
and real-estate people. We all agreed on what day/time to meet. Well
we all got there and the owner refused to let our inspector do
anything. He wasn't allowed to flip a light switch, move curtains to
check outlets.... NOTHING. I looked at my realtor and told her to
terminate the contract right then. The next day the owner's realtor
called and asked if we could try again. I laid down my terms and told
him that I also wanted a structural engineer to look at the property
and gave him the engineers' available schedule. He called back and
told me the owner would only allow him to come look at the house on X
day which happened to be one of the 2 days the engineer was not
available that whole week. I told him that was not acceptable and
that there will be no further negotiations and the deal was off.

I guess some people just don't want my money!!! Odd.

Scott

A high percentage of good airplanes are bought and sold locally on word of
mouth... I bought mine within 20 minutes when I found out that it was 'now'
for sale and going to be listed in Trade-A-Plane the very next day

I hadn't been to the airport in a couple of weeks and I just happened to
walk over to his hangar when I saw the lights on at 8PM on a winter night...
He later said he started getting phone calls bright and early the next
morning and some were downright po'd when he told them it was sold...

denny

"Carl Orton" wrote in message My plane that I just
bought this week literally was handed to me. Actually,
my "network" found it and made some initial queries.

It can be a lot frustrating to be the seller or the buyer. I just sold one
plane
and bought another. I keep hearing people tell me it's a buyers market. Sure
didn't seem that way to me. Every time I saw a promising candidate be posted
for sale it was sold or had a deposit on it when I called. I finally found
something
in another state and had a friend quick run over and look it over and go
thru the logs. I bought it.

On the plane I sold I was buried in buyers. Were some tire kickers? Maybe ..
but I was a tire kicker at a time and so I try to give them all the info I
can to
help them out. I understand they may not have made a decision to buy
a plane yet and are testing the waters. I first made a comment online last
fall that I was considering a sale of my plane and had several emails back
within about 10 minutes offering to buy it. The first guy to email me came
and looked at it before I even decided to sell it. Then he couldn't get his
money together when I agreed. The eventual buyer was the second guy
who'd emailed me. I've never asked for a downpayment. I work thru the
buyers in the order they contact me and give them a week or so to decide.
But I don't stop advertising until the transaction is completed. So when
I told the buyer that I had others that wanted the plane .. it was
absolutely the truth.

Some comments from the buyer perspective:

I always pay the $99 and have AOPA do the Lien/Airworthiness/Registration
history on the plane. Then I compare the 337s on file and the
accident/incident
history with the log books. I look for a pattern of fixing things as they go
wrong
and no long periods where nothing is repaired. I look for anything in the
logs
that might indicate an undisclosed damage history. I know that every plane
will
have issues and budget about 5% of the price for dealing with it. I buy it
so that
it won't have problems that will haunt me at resale time.

As a seller:

The plane I'm selling isn't going anywhere. It can be inspected in the shop
of my
A&P, by the buyer's A&P. The potential buyer can inspect whatever they want.
The
buyer's A&P doesn't work for me and is to make no entries in the logs. The
purpose
of a prebuy from MY perspective as a seller is for the potential buyer to
see if the
plane in it's "AS IS" condition meets their budget at my asking price. If
not then
they should move on. I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
planes ..
so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
inflexible on price ..
using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down ..
just don't
work. I set the price at what's selling in the market right now and the
condition
of the plane. I sure don't consider that arogance .. I've just been down
the road
a few times and can usually read a buyer and just don't respond to or deal
with the ones I think aren't up front or that I think will be difficult.





"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found
1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
This
last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
had
2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do
a
pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.

He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted
it
or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
did
not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
buy
the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
talk
to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
immediately
hung up the phone!

This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
his
phone # in to my call rejection.

Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
No
telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.

What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.

Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
indicator
was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
should be a simple yes or no answer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------

The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
copy
from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "MRQB"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Do you have a 337 on that repair.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To: "TAC"
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "TAC"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.

This message is from:

Please send all the spec's thank you.

Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?

SD wrote:

I guess some people just don't want my money!!! Odd.

Interesting. Here in New Jersey, you can't sell a house without an inspection
by a structural engineer and an exterminator selected by the prospective buyer.
If the seller tries to limit what the inspector can see, they can't sell the
house.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

How about a side discussion about which are the worst

Arrogant Sellers
or
Tire Kicking Buyers.

Well, I've only sold one plane -- and that one sold to our best friends!
Hard to complain about that...

Sellers, though, I've seen some real pips. One older gentleman in
particular was selling his baby 182, and wouldn't dicker a nickel. Any
offer less than his asking price was met with insulted indignation. He gave
no thought to making a counter offer, cuz he thought his bird was worth 20%
more than every other 182.

Supposedly he was a successful local businessman, but he apparently had no
idea how "bargaining" works.

Of course, we walked. And, of course, he eventually sold it for much less
than his asking price, after the "price bubble" burst a couple of years ago.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
It used to be that they'd nickel and dime you; now they $10, $20, $50 you to
death.

Obviously, you have never dealt with IBM Global Services.
With them it is $10k-, $20k- and $50K-ing you to death. Even if your
contract states that certain services are included in what you are
already paying, they still find creative ways to tack on extra charges.
Things like higher sales taxes for the neighboring county instead of
your county; taxes on taxes; taxes on things that aren't taxed; charging
taxes on items the contract explicitly says taxes are included. If you
don't have a savy contract manager, they will screw you royally.

I always wondered why businesses that outsourced to them terminated the
contract at the first possible opportunity.

In article SJx1c.37294$PR3.745133@attbi_s03, "Robert Bates"
writes:

I agree with Jay. Anyone who won't let a mechanic look at it is hiding
something.

Not always, it's a two way street. Seven years ago when I bought my plane, the
owner flew it to my airport and my A&P did the pre-buy. Owner kept saying "I
should just go back home. I don't want to sell this plane" and I kept thinking
"Doesn't matter much what Tom finds, I want this plane." Well, someone
protects those in love, the plane passed, and all has gone well for the last
seven years.

However, now as an owner, I can see both sides. What if my A&P and I had been
dishonest? The A&P grounds the plane and my negotiating position sure has
improved. What if the inspection damaged something? You who have sold a
plane, (this one is my first) what are your comments. Can you have a pre-buy
by an A&P and not give him the option to ground the plane?

Chuck