Israeli Stealth???

Several months ago someone mentioned that the Israelis were developing
some form of secret craft called the "Seraph". What is this- a stealth
aircraft or UCAV?

Did Jane's ever cover it? If so, I missed it

Kenneth Williams

(Kenneth Williams) wrote in message om...
Several months ago someone mentioned that the Israelis were developing
some form of secret craft called the "Seraph". What is this- a stealth
aircraft or UCAV?

Did Jane's ever cover it? If so, I missed it

Kenneth Williams

This is actually a South African project. Here's a good link with
information and pictures.

http://www.invisible-defenders.org/p...avs/seraph.htm

-----JT-----

(JT) wrote in message . com...
(Kenneth Williams) wrote in message om...
Several months ago someone mentioned that the Israelis were developing
some form of secret craft called the "Seraph". What is this- a stealth
aircraft or UCAV?

Did Jane's ever cover it? If so, I missed it

Kenneth Williams

This is actually a South African project. Here's a good link with
information and pictures.

http://www.invisible-defenders.org/p...avs/seraph.htm

-----JT-----

Actually, it's more complicated than that. South Africa's project is
indeed called "Seraph" and is known by the Israelis. However, the
"Seraph" (Fiery Serpent) the IAF is interested in is an aircraft based
on the German "Firefly II" that supposedly was test-flown in recent
years in South Africa at the Overberg range.
The original MBB Lampyridae (Firefly) was a stealth interceptor
remarkably close in resemblence to the early F-117. Supposedly, the US
found out about the aircraft in 1981 and pressured West Germany to
give it up by 1989- project cancelled. However, as MBB became DASA, DB
Aerospace, and now EADS it is said that the Germans never gave the
project up and it evolved into a highly advanced NATO stealth project
known as "Firefly II"- a tailless medium-size black triangle
(powerplant unknown).
Israeli-German military co-operation is increasing, so it is not that
hard to believe that the Israelis were aware of the Firefly II test
flight at Overberg. The Israelis might have even witnessed it.
Anyway, the IAF "Seraph" is related to a stealth aircraft, not South
Africa's project.

Rob

(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...
(JT) wrote in message . com...
(Kenneth Williams) wrote in message om...
Several months ago someone mentioned that the Israelis were developing
some form of secret craft called the "Seraph". What is this- a stealth
aircraft or UCAV?

Did Jane's ever cover it? If so, I missed it

Kenneth Williams

This is actually a South African project. Here's a good link with
information and pictures.

http://www.invisible-defenders.org/p...avs/seraph.htm

-----JT-----

Actually, it's more complicated than that. South Africa's project is
indeed called "Seraph" and is known by the Israelis. However, the
"Seraph" (Fiery Serpent) the IAF is interested in is an aircraft based
on the German "Firefly II" that supposedly was test-flown in recent
years in South Africa at the Overberg range.
The original MBB Lampyridae (Firefly) was a stealth interceptor
remarkably close in resemblence to the early F-117. Supposedly, the US
found out about the aircraft in 1981 and pressured West Germany to
give it up by 1989- project cancelled. However, as MBB became DASA, DB
Aerospace, and now EADS it is said that the Germans never gave the
project up and it evolved into a highly advanced NATO stealth project
known as "Firefly II"- a tailless medium-size black triangle
(powerplant unknown).
Israeli-German military co-operation is increasing, so it is not that
hard to believe that the Israelis were aware of the Firefly II test
flight at Overberg. The Israelis might have even witnessed it.

And the source for this "info" is...?

Anyway, the IAF "Seraph" is related to a stealth aircraft, not South
Africa's project.

Uhmmm...the South African project is (was? not a lot of progress
reported of late, the last being in 2001...) also a stealthy design.

Brooks


Rob

Rob, do you have any links for this project? Sounds really
interesting. I have seen data on the Lampyridae but this is the first
time I'm hearing of the Firefly II.

Regards,
-----JT-----

(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...

Actually, it's more complicated than that. South Africa's project is
indeed called "Seraph" and is known by the Israelis. However, the
"Seraph" (Fiery Serpent) the IAF is interested in is an aircraft based
on the German "Firefly II" that supposedly was test-flown in recent
years in South Africa at the Overberg range.
The original MBB Lampyridae (Firefly) was a stealth interceptor
remarkably close in resemblence to the early F-117. Supposedly, the US
found out about the aircraft in 1981 and pressured West Germany to
give it up by 1989- project cancelled. However, as MBB became DASA, DB
Aerospace, and now EADS it is said that the Germans never gave the
project up and it evolved into a highly advanced NATO stealth project
known as "Firefly II"- a tailless medium-size black triangle
(powerplant unknown).
Israeli-German military co-operation is increasing, so it is not that
hard to believe that the Israelis were aware of the Firefly II test
flight at Overberg. The Israelis might have even witnessed it.
Anyway, the IAF "Seraph" is related to a stealth aircraft, not South
Africa's project.

Rob

However, as MBB became DASA, DB
Aerospace, and now EADS it is said that the Germans never gave the
project up and it evolved into a highly advanced NATO stealth project
known as "Firefly II"- a tailless medium-size black triangle
(powerplant unknown).
Israeli-German military co-operation is increasing, so it is not that
hard to believe that the Israelis were aware of the Firefly II test
flight at Overberg. The Israelis might have even witnessed it.
Anyway, the IAF "Seraph" is related to a stealth aircraft, not South
Africa's project.

Rob


I think in so called firefly II not only the tail is missing,I would hardly
call it an "airplane".

Cheers
also

(JT) wrote in message . com...
Rob, do you have any links for this project? Sounds really
interesting. I have seen data on the Lampyridae but this is the first
time I'm hearing of the Firefly II.

Regards,
-----JT-----

This information surfaced a few years back at the time the Germans
helped Israel test fire a cruise missile from one of the Dolphin-class
SSKs Germany sold Israel. The test firing took place off the coast of
South Africa. In the European military journals of the time was also
mention of Germany secretly testing a stealth design at the South
African Overberg test range and that the two test aircraft were part
of a NATO black budget stealth program called "Firefly II".
It gave the history of the original MBB Lampyridae of 1981-89 (which
even Janes did not report until 1995) and the persistant rumor that
Germany never gave the program up and even expanded its stealth
research into the NATO program.
Details of the craft are hard to come by but it is said to be an
equilateral black triangle, undetectable, near silent with the ability
to hover, and utilizing an underneath light system for visual stealth
at night (similar to the starfield type deception the Lockheed Stealth
Blimp is said to use). Propulsion is non-jet and not in any way
related to the older concept Lampyridae, which would have been a
stealth interceptor in the '80s.
Like all world black budget craft, the Firefly II is in the same class
as the Astra, HALO, etc... leaked, unacknowledged, but flying
somewhere... operational status unknown.

Rob

Details of the craft are hard to come by but it is said to be an
equilateral black triangle, undetectable, near silent with the ability
to hover, and utilizing an underneath light system for visual stealth
at night (similar to the starfield type deception the Lockheed Stealth
Blimp is said to use). Propulsion is non-jet and not in any way
related to the older concept Lampyridae, which would have been a
stealth interceptor in the '80s.
Like all world black budget craft, the Firefly II is in the same class
as the Astra, HALO, etc... leaked, unacknowledged, but flying
somewhere... operational status unknown.

Well if such concept actually is true, it would probably explain the sightings
over Belgium in the early 90s.



Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

362436 (Ron) wrote in message ...
Details of the craft are hard to come by but it is said to be an
equilateral black triangle, undetectable, near silent with the ability
to hover, and utilizing an underneath light system for visual stealth
at night (similar to the starfield type deception the Lockheed Stealth
Blimp is said to use). Propulsion is non-jet and not in any way
related to the older concept Lampyridae, which would have been a
stealth interceptor in the '80s.
Like all world black budget craft, the Firefly II is in the same class
as the Astra, HALO, etc... leaked, unacknowledged, but flying
somewhere... operational status unknown.

Well if such concept actually is true, it would probably explain the sightings
over Belgium in the early 90s.

Comparisons to that effect have been discussed before, but nobody can
confirm what the Belgian Wave craft are except the suspicion of being
terrestrial HUFOs of military origin (they flew in formation).
Again, we could be looking at Astra, a more advanced HALO, or Firefly
II. The breakthrough in non-jet propulsion supposedly came in the late
'80s/early '90s with FFX (Field Effects) but there is still debate
over who invented it- either the British or US. At that time there was
an agreement with the US and Britain not to share stealth technology
with the European continent. Germany and France, however, had
independent stealth programs of their own from Dassault and DASA. If
the Germans could independently design a F-117 type aircraft (MBB
Lampyridae)without the US finding out about it until 1981 then it is
quite possible that the Germans also developed their own FFX
propulsion system. But I tend to rule out the Belgian Wave sightings
because Firefly II didn't fly until recently (at the time of the
Israeli SSK demonstration off South Africa). HALO also seems unlikely
due to the Belgian triangles size, which is easily larger than the
small Hawk-like HALO prototype spotted in the UK at the time. IMO, if
the Belgian Wave craft were terrestrial then they were probably US
Astra craft based in the UK.

Rob



Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...
(JT) wrote in message . com...
Rob, do you have any links for this project? Sounds really
interesting. I have seen data on the Lampyridae but this is the first
time I'm hearing of the Firefly II.

Regards,
-----JT-----

This information surfaced a few years back at the time the Germans
helped Israel test fire a cruise missile from one of the Dolphin-class
SSKs Germany sold Israel. The test firing took place off the coast of
South Africa. In the European military journals of the time was also
mention of Germany secretly testing a stealth design at the South
African Overberg test range and that the two test aircraft were part
of a NATO black budget stealth program called "Firefly II".
It gave the history of the original MBB Lampyridae of 1981-89 (which
even Janes did not report until 1995) and the persistant rumor that
Germany never gave the program up and even expanded its stealth
research into the NATO program.
Details of the craft are hard to come by but it is said to be an
equilateral black triangle, undetectable, near silent with the ability
to hover, and utilizing an underneath light system for visual stealth
at night (similar to the starfield type deception the Lockheed Stealth
Blimp is said to use). Propulsion is non-jet and not in any way
related to the older concept Lampyridae, which would have been a
stealth interceptor in the '80s.
Like all world black budget craft, the Firefly II is in the same class
as the Astra, HALO, etc... leaked, unacknowledged, but flying
somewhere... operational status unknown.

Gee, another Aurora, huh? I guess based purely upon faith you have
accept that it is flying... Where is the evidence?

Brooks


Rob