If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
"Stefan" wrote in message ... Bill Daniels wrote: BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch experience jumping in here? SNIP Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person show you safe procedures. Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years. Stefan We do 40, 20 as observer/helper, and 20 supervised, but our winch is a simple single-drummed affair. Frank Whiteley |
#42
|
|||
|
|||
"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message ... "Stefan" wrote in message ... Bill Daniels wrote: BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch experience jumping in here? SNIP Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person show you safe procedures. Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years. Stefan We do 40, 20 as observer/helper, and 20 supervised, but our winch is a simple single-drummed affair. Frank Whiteley Let me amend this to say a minimum of 40. To that end, you may have driven a winch hundreds or thousands of times and still not have seen it all, and hopefully, never will. Frank Whiteley |
#43
|
|||
|
|||
In Germany, the requirement is 100 supervised launches on at least 10
different days. -- Bert Willing ASW20 "TW" "F.L. Whiteley" a écrit dans le message de ... Let me amend this to say a minimum of 40. To that end, you may have driven a winch hundreds or thousands of times and still not have seen it all, and hopefully, never will. Frank Whiteley |
#44
|
|||
|
|||
Bill Daniels wrote:
BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch experience jumping in here? I have done some 1500 winch launches and about 50 aerotows. Beside some cable breaks, I can't remember any uncomfortable situation during a winch launch. I can't tell this of the aerotows. In Germany, winch drivers have to do at least 100 launches on 10 different days under supervision of an experienced driver. The 10 days rule is to ensure different weather/wind situations during the training. We expect every pilot to get his winch driver licence. The driver will get a replacement after some hours and normally can choose his favorite glider after his shift. As for unexperienced winch drivers: anything that can happen (cable breaks, engine problems, other launch interruptions) can be and must be handled by the pilot. On our 1200 m strip, we normally get 350-600 m after release. On good thermal days, this is pretty enough to get away. With students we can do easily lots of patterns of 6-10 minutes. Eggert |
#45
|
|||
|
|||
Mr. Ehmke --
Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems extraordinary. Is your cable length just 1200 m also or is it greater than your strip length? Thanks for your input. BJ Eggert Ehmke wrote: Bill Daniels wrote: BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch experience jumping in here? I have done some 1500 winch launches and about 50 aerotows. Beside some cable breaks, I can't remember any uncomfortable situation during a winch launch. I can't tell this of the aerotows. In Germany, winch drivers have to do at least 100 launches on 10 different days under supervision of an experienced driver. The 10 days rule is to ensure different weather/wind situations during the training. We expect every pilot to get his winch driver licence. The driver will get a replacement after some hours and normally can choose his favorite glider after his shift. As for unexperienced winch drivers: anything that can happen (cable breaks, engine problems, other launch interruptions) can be and must be handled by the pilot. On our 1200 m strip, we normally get 350-600 m after release. On good thermal days, this is pretty enough to get away. With students we can do easily lots of patterns of 6-10 minutes. Eggert |
#46
|
|||
|
|||
Bob Johnson writes
Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems extraordinary. Is your cable length just 1200 m also or is it greater than your strip length? 350-600m is between 1155' and 1980' (approximately)? Our own main strip is 1500m. In my somewhat limited experience, the typical winch launch releases a K13 at 1600'. With an appropriate head-wind, I've read that launches of up to 3000' (910m ?) can be achieved from this particular strip (though possibly not in a K13!), though that could well be just innocent boasting. In that context, is 600m from a 1200m strip quite so extraordinary? Especially as it was cited as the outside boundary of a range (ie. 350 to 600). From a complete layman's point of view (well, one with 12 winch launches so far and 1 aerotow to his name) I'd say that the winch was a good deal more exhilarating than a tow and thus feels a damn sight more risky. But I understand that if you fly the launch by the book then the winch is perfectly safe. That said, I've also read somewhere that the main contributors to gliding fatalities in the UK are mainly mid-airs and "spin-ins" from steeply initiated winch launches. If that's the case, then perhaps the fact that a pilot launching on winch only has himself to worry about, as opposed to one on tow who also has the tug pilot's safety as a concern and responsibility, might leave the former more predisposed to taking chances with his personal safety? And perhaps the fact that you do need to fly a winch launch aggressively (by comparison) if you want to make the maximum possible height out of it, whereas with a tow, failing pilot error, mechanical failure or other eventuality, you are going to make the release height you want regardless. A winch has a 30 second window at best. A tow can take as long as it needs within reason. Of course, none of this contributes the stats and figures requested. And all of this could be attributed to the flawed mis-interpretations of a complete newbie who has read far too much in the last three months to possibly retain any of it with a reasonable degree of accuracy ... -- Bill Gribble /----------------------------------\ | http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk | | http://members.aol.com/annsweb | | http://www.shatteredkingdoms.org | \----------------------------------/ |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
Bob Johnson wrote:
Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems extraordinary. It all depends on the wind. With zero wind, the rule of thumb is that you get approximately 1/3 the cable lengh. More with headwind, much more with strong headwind. With extraordirarily strong headwind, you can even kite. (Yes, it has been done.) Stefan |
#48
|
|||
|
|||
Stefan writes
With extraordirarily strong headwind, you can even kite. (Yes, it has been done.) Whilst I have no trouble believing that, it does conjure up some curious mental images ... Though perhaps that speaks more of my own mental imbalance than that of the suggestion g -- Bill Gribble /----------------------------------\ | http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk | | http://members.aol.com/annsweb | | http://www.shatteredkingdoms.org | \----------------------------------/ |
#49
|
|||
|
|||
Bob Johnson wrote:
Mr. Ehmke -- Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems extraordinary. Is your cable length just 1200 m also or is it greater than your strip length? That's 1200 m of cable laid out, with a V8 240 HP engine at the other end. What I told is the normal range - with strong wind aligned to the runway we had 750 m (2460 feet) agl with a double seated ASK21. I did not see this launch, but it sounds reasonable. 650 m I have experienced myself. Eggert |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
I really appreciate all this good input, thank you all for responding. Now
for a new twist, one of our members has built a "pay out winch". A pay out winch is a drum with a break on it. The glider hooks up about 200' behind the tow vehicle, and as the glider climbs, the line spools out. Does anybody have any experience with this type of launch? How much runway do you need for this type of launch, how high can you get, ect? Boggs "Stefan" wrote in message ... Bob Johnson wrote: Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems extraordinary. It all depends on the wind. With zero wind, the rule of thumb is that you get approximately 1/3 the cable lengh. More with headwind, much more with strong headwind. With extraordirarily strong headwind, you can even kite. (Yes, it has been done.) Stefan |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Parachute fails to save SR-22 | Capt.Doug | Piloting | 72 | February 10th 05 05:14 AM |
spaceship one | Pianome | Home Built | 169 | June 30th 04 05:47 AM |
The Internet public meeting on National Air Tour Standards begins Feb. 23 at 9 a.m. | Larry Dighera | Piloting | 0 | February 22nd 04 03:58 PM |
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools | RT | Military Aviation | 104 | September 25th 03 03:17 PM |
using winch instead of aerotow | goneill | Soaring | 5 | August 27th 03 02:46 PM |