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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. The idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st, with May 14th and 15th as practice days. The event is not a contest, but will be competitive. The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including: 1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned contests. 2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving 3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days Differences from standard contests will be: 1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the start must be El Tiro Gliderport 2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly to OLC. 3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be permitted. 4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to- ground communications between team members 5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over closed airspace may not apply. (We have not yet made a determination about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified) 6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation will not be permitted. Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for best flights in each category (still to be decided), including distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores. I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp. Mike |
#2
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st, with May 14th and 15th as practice days. The event is not a contest, but will be competitive. The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including: 1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned contests. 2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving 3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days Differences from standard contests will be: 1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the start must be El Tiro Gliderport 2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly to OLC. 3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be permitted. 4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to- ground communications between team members 5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified) 6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation will not be permitted. Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for best flights in each category (still to be decided), including distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores. I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp. Mike This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. What are the quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El Tiro flying area? Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan? Matt |
#3
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
On Dec 14, 10:53*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote: With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st, with May 14th and 15th as practice days. The event is not a contest, but will be competitive. The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including: 1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned contests. 2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving 3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days Differences from standard contests will be: 1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the start must be El Tiro Gliderport 2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly to OLC. 3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be permitted. 4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to- ground communications between team members 5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified) 6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation will not be permitted. Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for best flights in each category (still to be decided), including distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores. I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp. Mike This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. *What are the quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El Tiro flying area? *Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan? Matt The landout options for El Tiro vary between severe tiger country in some areas to lots of good landable fields and a few good airports in other areas. It depends which way you go. Pilots with little XC experience would be safest working between Ryan to the South and Estrella to the North. This area has lots of field landing areas and several good airports/airstrips. There is a caution even for that though as the last 8 miles approaching El Tiro from the North are completely unlandable. With good altitude (10k ft) a more lot of the area becomes available for safe XC and we task in all directions except West. Any pilot that feels comfortable flying at Parowan would have no problem flying safely at El Tiro. Unlike Parowan the airport has 10 runway ends so you never have to worry about being able to land safely when you get back. Andy |
#4
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
On Dec 15, 6:07*am, Andy wrote:
On Dec 14, 10:53*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote: On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote: With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st, with May 14th and 15th as practice days. The event is not a contest, but will be competitive. The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including: 1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned contests. 2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving 3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days Differences from standard contests will be: 1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the start must be El Tiro Gliderport 2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly to OLC. 3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be permitted. 4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to- ground communications between team members 5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified) 6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation will not be permitted. Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for best flights in each category (still to be decided), including distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores. I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp. Mike This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. *What are the quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El Tiro flying area? *Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan? Matt The landout options for El Tiro vary between severe tiger country in some areas to lots of good landable fields and a few good airports in other areas. It depends which way you go. *Pilots with little XC experience would be safest working between Ryan to the South and Estrella to the North. *This area has lots of field landing areas and several good airports/airstrips. *There is a caution even for that though as the last 8 miles approaching El Tiro from the North are completely unlandable. *With good altitude (10k ft) a more lot of the area becomes available for safe XC and we task in all directions except West. Any pilot that feels comfortable flying at Parowan would have no problem flying safely at El Tiro. *Unlike Parowan the airport has 10 runway ends so you never have to worry about being able to land safely when you get back. Andy "a lot more of the area". I wish one could edit after posting. |
#5
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. * I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be accomplished by waiver. Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a "answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new. John Cochrane |
#6
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
On Dec 15, 8:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote: On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote: With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. * I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be accomplished by waiver. Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a "answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new. John Cochrane This sounds like a neat Idea, but I think there's nothing wrong with calling an acual contest task. A good example of a XC camp/starter contest is the Memorial day contest put on by the Chicago Clider Council. The contest is set up as a weekend sports class contest, and acual tasks are set each day. The nice thing bout the way this contest is run is that two tasks ar called each day. One short "beginner" task, and a long tak for the more advanced participants. Both categories are scored on winscore as in a real contest. I had a blast flying it for the first time last year in my Ka-6, and learned a ton. It actually got me thinking of maybe flying a contest in the future, but the lack of anything in Region 7 (besides the memotial day contest) is keeping me from probably flying in a real sports class conest this year. Peter |
#7
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
.... A good example of a XC camp/starter contest is the Memorial day contest put on by the Chicago Clider Council. The contest is set up as a weekend sports class contest, and acual tasks are set each day. The nice thing bout the way this contest is run is that two tasks ar called each day. One short "beginner" task, and a long tak for the more advanced participants. Both categories are scored on winscore as in a real contest. I had a blast flying it for the first time last year in my Ka-6, and learned a ton. It actually got me thinking of maybe flying a contest in the future, but the lack of anything in Region 7 (besides the memotial day contest) is keeping me from probably flying in a real sports class conest this year. Peter This option will be available for real (sanctioned) regional contests this year. You can have two handicapped classes, call it "pro" and "am" or "leisure" and "seizure", one with big tasks and one with a more beginner friendly task. So let's make Sky Soaring a regional contest this year! Among the many advantages of running an event by ssa rules is that pilots learn how contests work and discover they might be fun. I'm surprised too if the Arizona crowd wants go-anywhere-you-want distance tasks. Long unrestricted MAT are not particularly popular elsewhere, to put it mildly. But if that's what you want, the rules let you do it. John Cochrane |
#8
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote: On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote: With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. * I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be accomplished by waiver. Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a "answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new. John Cochrane John: Perhaps I should have used the term "issues" rather than "problems". Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were no available windows for a sanctioned contest. Secondly, we wanted a more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country flying. One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible to fly in the allocated time. A whole bunch of gliders hung around for hours waiting for the start as the day died. The task was also set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a lot of landouts. Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints, greatly enhancing safety. One or two local pilots have a good history of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those. We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race round a fixed course. However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying, which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world. Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it, fly further and have more fun. Pretty much what we do most weekends. We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area by providing mentors. Even you must agree that regular contests aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills. Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk). Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do task-setting and scoring. In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are necessarily the only or best way to achieve this. Mike |
#9
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
Mike:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm keeping this open because we really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as attractive as possible. Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were no available windows for a sanctioned contest. * This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look in to it. Secondly, we wanted a more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints, greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those. We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race round a fixed course. As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this. You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set huge turn areas. However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying, which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world. Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it, fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends. We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills. For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules. Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk). For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up! Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do task-setting and scoring. Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from "camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance. You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy. In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are necessarily the only or best way to achieve this. I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more still available by waiver! John |
#10
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Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp
On Dec 15, 8:48*am, John Cochrane
wrote: Mike: Thanks for the thoughtful response. *I'm keeping this open because we really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as attractive as possible. Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were no available windows for a sanctioned contest. * This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look in to it. Secondly, we wanted a more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints, greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those. We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race round a fixed course. As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this. You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set huge turn areas. However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying, which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world. Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it, fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends. We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills. For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules. Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk). For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up! Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do task-setting and scoring. Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from "camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance. You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy. In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are necessarily the only or best way to achieve this. I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more still available by waiver! John I should also add that it's not as if Arizona has no competitive racing. The Arizona Soaring Association race series is well-attended and has many weekend races at a number of gliderports around the State - in 2010 we completed 18 out of 20 scheduled days' racing! We just thought we would do something different. Our team flying has often taken the format where the lead flier will nominate a turnpoint and the group then agrees on a course - essentially a multi-pilot MAT. At the camp. we may also nominate some tasks or turnpoints for training purposes to keep those unfamiliar with the area over landable terrain. Mike |
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