R in a Circle (Airport Surveillance Radar) on VFR charts

So radar services are provided only to the airport with the R?

No. Which is why the (R) is not as useful as it could be.

Jose

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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

No.


How far from the airport with the R are radar services provided?



Which is why the (R) is not as useful as it could be.


How could it be made more useful?

How far from the airport with the R are radar services provided?

I don't know. But suppose I did (and suppose the answer were 30nm). I'd need
to look at my airport of intended landing (no (R)) and then every airport
within 30 nm (probably only the towered ones though) looking for the (R) symbol
to see if there was a radar unit close enough to my intended. Then I'd have to
guess or assume that my intended would be covered by this distant radar
(terrain may prevent this), or I'd have to go looking in some publication
(A/FD) to see if there were such a limitation.

How could [the (R) symbol] be made more useful?

By putting it at every airport which had (specific) radar services, no matter
where the radar unit itself is located.

At least this would make it more useful to pilots in the cockpit, where leisure
is at a premium.

Actually, I've never used those symbols myself, and am not sure what "services"
I'd request from their hosts. However, I suspect that ASR approaches would be
available there (or, more accurately, would be unavailable elsewhere outside
ARSA, C & D). This is useful to know should all the gauges go in the poop at
the same time I hit the soup VFR, but a U-turn would be better.

Now, the symbol I find least useful is the C in a circle (indicating that the
frequency shown for the airport is a CTAF. I mean, aren't most of them?
(probably all of them)

Jose


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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
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I don't know. But suppose I did (and suppose the answer
were 30nm). I'd need to look at my airport of intended landing
(no (R)) and then every airport within 30 nm (probably only the
towered ones though) looking for the (R) symbol to see if there
was a radar unit close enough to my intended.


Well, if the R is used to indicate the presence of ASR that means there's no
Class B or C airspace or a TRSA, which means you're in a fairly low
population area. Such areas don't tend to have a lot of towered fields so
there wouldn't be too many to examine for the R. I don't see a problem.



Then I'd have to guess or assume that my intended would be
covered by this distant radar (terrain may prevent this), or I'd have
to go looking in some publication (A/FD) to see if there were such
a limitation.


Thirty miles is distant? That's about half the nominal range of ASR.



By putting it at every airport which had (specific) radar services,
no matter where the radar unit itself is located.


What specific radar services are you talking about? I thought we were
talking about traffic advisories to VFR aircraft. What if I'm not landing
at any of those airports? What do all of those Rs do for me then?



At least this would make it more useful to pilots in the cockpit,
where leisure is at a premium.


I find most of my VFR cross country flights to be quite leisurely. I don't
see how putting an R at every airport within range of the ASR does anything
other than put a lot of Rs on the sectional. If you know where the ASR is
located, and you have a rudimentary knowledge of radar, then you have a good
idea where radar services are available.



Actually, I've never used those symbols myself, and am not sure
what "services" I'd request from their hosts.


You'd be requesting traffic advisories.



However, I suspect that ASR approaches would be available there
(or, more accurately, would be unavailable elsewhere outside
ARSA, C & D).


Not necessarily, many locations that have ASR do not provide surveillance
approaches. Locations that do are found in section N of the TPP.



This is useful to know should all the gauges go in the poop
at the same time I hit the soup VFR, but a U-turn would be better.


You shouldn't hit the soup VFR.



Now, the symbol I find least useful is the C in a circle (indicating
that the frequency shown for the airport is a CTAF. I mean,
aren't most of them?
(probably all of them)


If CTAF was well understood the C symbol wouldn't have been created.
Probably the most common error was using the Unicom frequency for advisories
at locations with part-time towers. Now you'll find the C symbol following
the tower frequency at those locations.

Such areas don't tend to have a lot of towered fields so
there wouldn't be too many to examine for the R. I don't see a problem.


The idea is to make life easier, not to make life "not that much harder". From
this pilot's perspective, looking one place for info is easier than looking
several places. Redundancy is sometimes a good idea (the quadrant altitudes
are redundant, but quite handy). True, there are tradeoffs (chart clutter, the
needs of other chart users, and the effort involved in charting more symbols);
I'm just addressing one side of it.

Thirty miles is distant? That's about half the nominal range of ASR.

I pulled the number out of my anatomy. (actually I remember seeing that figure
here in the newsgroups somewhere, but the exact figure isn't important to my
answer - I don't know what it is and suspect it's also terrain dependent)


What specific radar services are you talking about? I thought we were
talking about traffic advisories to VFR aircraft.


I don't know. An ASR approach maybe? (Yes, I got and learned from your reply
that ASR appraches aren't always available at an ASR site) But, IF there's a
symbol that says I can get "stuff" somewhere, I'd like to know what "stuff" I
can get. Then I can decide whether I want it, and whether the symbol really
gave me any useful inforamtion. When I want VFR advisories (whether I'm
landing at those airports or not), I call approach or center and ask for them,
symbol or no symbol. Should I do differently?


I find most of my VFR cross country flights to be quite leisurely. I don't
see how putting an R at every airport within range of the ASR does anything
other than put a lot of Rs on the sectional.


I pretty much agree here. Symbol clutter is already getting out of hand.


If you know where the ASR is
located, and you have a rudimentary knowledge
of radar, then you have a good
idea where radar services are available.


For flight following, I jsut call them, R or no R. I don't study all the
airports in a (ok, lets make it) 60 mile range of my course line to see what
the radar situation is. So, I won't likely notice the R if it's not at my
destination or near it.

You shouldn't hit the soup VFR.

No, of course not. I was attemting a humorous illustration, but it does
happen.


If CTAF was well understood the C symbol wouldn't have been created.
Probably the most common error was using the Unicom frequency for advisories
at locations with part-time towers. Now you'll find the C symbol following
the tower frequency at those locations.


WARNING SILICA GEL DO NOT EAT.

Gee, I just bought a new camera and they included a little snack!

===

So, the R means that, AT THAT AIRPORT is located the antenna for the same kind
of radar services (or the same range of kinds of radar services) offered at an
ARSA, C, or B. However, unlike an ARSA, there are no altitude ranges and
lateral limits made known to the pilots. So, I'm still scratching my head a
bit (and suspect the answer has to do with politics, salary grades, and
history)....

What is the difference between the airspace IN an ARSA, the airspace nearby but
OUTSIDE an ARSA, and the airspace outside ARSA, C, and B, but "near" an (R)?

I suspect: ARSA, C, and B provide =separation= to certain participating
aircraft (of varying levels) and the (R) provides advisories but no separation.

Yes?

Jose






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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

The idea is to make life easier, not to make life "not that much harder".


You don't think identifying the locations of ASR on the sectional makes life
just a bit easier?



From this pilot's perspective, looking one place for info is easier
than looking several places.


Explain.



Redundancy is sometimes a good idea (the quadrant altitudes
are redundant, but quite handy).


Redundancy? What has that to do with this discussion?



True, there are tradeoffs (chart clutter, the needs of other chart
users, and the effort involved in charting more symbols);
I'm just addressing one side of it.


And yet you advocate adding clutter to the chart, clutter that provides no
information.



I don't know. An ASR approach maybe?


Why would a pilot on a VFR cross country be interested in an ASR approach?



(Yes, I got and learned from your reply that ASR appraches
aren't always available at an ASR site) But, IF there's a
symbol that says I can get "stuff" somewhere, I'd like to know
what "stuff" I can get.


The R symbol identifies a radar facility, radar facilities provide radar
services. Are you unfamiliar with radar services?



Then I can decide whether I want it, and whether the symbol really
gave me any useful inforamtion. When I want VFR advisories
(whether I'm landing at those airports or not), I call approach or
center and ask for them, symbol or no symbol. Should I do
differently?


Calling approach requires you to know there's an approach, the symbol tells
you there's an approach control providing radar services.



I pretty much agree here. Symbol clutter is already getting out of hand.


And yet you advocate more of it.




For flight following, I jsut call them, R or no R.


How do you know they're there to be called?



What is the difference between the airspace IN an ARSA, the
airspace nearby but OUTSIDE an ARSA, and the airspace
outside ARSA, C, and B, but "near" an (R)?

I suspect: ARSA, C, and B provide =separation= to certain
participating aircraft (of varying levels) and the (R) provides
advisories but no separation.


You mean TRSA, not ARSA, ARSAs became Class C airspace over ten years ago.

The differences were explained about ten days ago. All aircraft are
separated in Class B airspace. VFR aircraft are separated from IFR and
other VFR aircraft in a TRSA, but participation is voluntary. VFR aircraft
are separated only from IFR aircraft in Class C airspace, but participation
is mandatory. All aircraft are sequenced to the primary airport in Class C
airspace, not so in a TRSA. An approach control without Class B or Class C
airspace or a TRSA does not normally provide separation to VFR aircraft.

You don't think identifying the locations of ASR on the sectional makes life
just a bit easier?


Than what? I don't want ASR, I want ASR services. Not the same.


From this pilot's perspective, looking one place for info is easier
than looking several places.

Explain.


If it takes three seconds to find an airport on the sectional and determine
whether or not there is ASR, and you have to do it seven times (because an
airport without an (R) could still get services), then it takes twenty one
seconds to determine whether services are available at your airport that
doesn't have an (R) but has an airport with an (R) near it, or that it doesn't,
because you can't find an airport with an (R) anywhere near the airport without
the (R) at which you intend to land.

Twenty-one is greater than three.

Redundancy? What has that to do with this discussion?

An idea I through out to the group was to put an (R) at every airport outside
B, C, ARSA which gets services. This would be redundant, since as you said,
the knowledge of the antenna location plus understanding of radar would allow
you to infer that services were available.


And yet you advocate adding clutter to the chart, clutter that provides no
information.


Exploring the idea, and still not sure why I should even pay attention to the
(R) in the first place. I already don't pay attention to the (C).


The R symbol identifies a radar facility, radar facilities provide radar
services. Are you unfamiliar with radar services?


I'm familar with radar. It's sort of like radio waves that bounce off my
airplane in the shape of letters and numbers that show up on a controller's
scope. Doesn't it have something to do with that thingabmabob in the cockpit
that has 1200 on it? (or sometimes 7700, when I have to take a leak) I've
never actually seen the letters fly through the air (I take it they are
invisible) but I have faith that they exist.

Anyway, radar facilities provide services to places without radar facilities.
So, the absence of an (R) doesn't tell me much.

How do you know they're there to be called?

They answer.


You mean TRSA, not ARSA, ARSAs became Class C airspace over ten years ago.


Ok, now you know when I got my certificate.

The differences were explained about ten days ago.

Yes, and this is why I didn't repeat them. But what do I get in an (R)?

Jose



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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Than what? I don't want ASR, I want ASR services. Not the same.


Where you find ASR you tend to find ASR services.



If it takes three seconds to find an airport on the sectional and
determine whether or not there is ASR, and you have to do it
seven times (because an airport without an (R) could still get
services), then it takes twenty one seconds to determine
whether services are available at your airport that doesn't have
an (R) but has an airport with an (R) near it, or that it doesn't,
because you can't find an airport with an (R) anywhere near the
airport without the (R) at which you intend to land.

Twenty-one is greater than three.


Where'd you pull those numbers from? It takes me a fraction of a second to
determine an airport has ASR.



Exploring the idea, and still not sure why I should even pay attention
to the (R) in the first place. I already don't pay attention to the (C).


The R tells you where ASR is located when there is no other indication.
Where you find ASR you find radar services. If you don't want radar
services there's no reason to pay any attention to the R.



I'm familar with radar.


Your messages suggest otherwise.



They answer.


You know they're there to be called because they answer when called? Sounds
rather circular.



Ok, now you know when I got my certificate.


I don't know that you have a certificate.





Yes, and this is why I didn't repeat them. But what do I get in an (R)?


It's questions like that suggest you're not familiar with radar.

Where you find ASR you tend to find ASR services.

But where you don't find ASR, you don't tend not to find ASR services.


It takes me a fraction of a second to
determine an airport has ASR.


But how long to find the airport (on the chart) in the first place? i.e. once
you've determined that XAV has no (R) you need to find the next nearest
airport... and see if it has an (R). That time counts too.


You know they're there to be called because they answer when called? Sounds
rather circular.


I'm playing with you, but just a little. When I take off, I know what the
departure frequency is. (I look it up in the A/FD). Once I contact them. I'm
in. They hand me off as needed, or suggest "contact Xannadu approach in twenty
miles on 113.325".

If (it's never happened to me) they just drop me with no clue, then I suppose
if I scramble around my charts, I'll find an (R) someplace there's radar. OK,
now I know there's radar. Now what? I still gotta call someone to get it.
The tower?

Far more useful would be the frequency to call on, and boundaries as to where,
though I do appreciate that there are good reasons not to put this on the
charts. I just haven't decided whether these good reasons are good enough.


But what do I get in an (R)?

It's questions like that suggest you're not familiar with radar.


And it's the lack of an answer that suggests the same thing to me. Radar is
that radio wave bounce thing, right? Like a rubber ball full of electrons and
morse codes.

An airport has an (R). What does that really tell me other than that the
facility is located there? What can I get in terms of advisories and
separation, and how far out, and who do I call?

Jose





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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

But where you don't find ASR, you don't tend not to find ASR services.


Nonsense. Where you don't find ASR you don't find ASR services.



But how long to find the airport (on the chart) in the first place?


Another fraction of a second.



I'm playing with you, but just a little.


You only think you are.



If (it's never happened to me) they just drop me with no clue, then
I suppose if I scramble around my charts, I'll find an (R)
someplace there's radar. OK, now I know there's radar. Now
what? I still gotta call someone to get it.
The tower?


That was explained early in the thread. I suggest you review it if you want
to know.



And it's the lack of an answer that suggests the same thing to
me.


But that was answered. What part did you not understand? I



An airport has an (R). What does that really tell me other than that the
facility is located there? What can I get in terms of advisories and
separation, and how far out, and who do I call?


You can't get separation, you can get traffic advisories and navigational
assistance if needed.

Are you sure you're a pilot? Most PEOPLE in western nations have a better
understanding of radar than you exhibit.