141 Schools

Many of you may not know these places by the phrase "141 school" so I
will give you some great ways to spot them. If the school is a
university flight department, if the name includes the word Academy, or
if their ad says anything that refers to training pilots for an airline
position it is a 141 school and you should carefully consider sending
anyone there. Here¡¦s your quick evaluation test: Do I want my
offspring to be a pilot or do I want them to be a regulation expert with
average skills? If it¡¦s the first, you should consider finding
another school.

Now if you happen to be a 141 graduate, please do not take this
personally. I know many pilots who made it through a 141 school
without the skills learned prior being stripped from them. If you are
a 141 grad and you get this newsletter, you likely know better than
anyone what I am talking about. And if you run a 141 school, there is
a chance you are one of the few who have received FAA approval despite
your good reputation. With that said, let¡¦s get to the meat of the
subject.

Why do people go to these schools and why do flight schools go to a 141
method of training? 141 Schools are typically accelerated programs that
are eligible for government grants, and whose students are eligible for
student loans. For this reason, it is very hard for me to blame a
flight school that chooses this route as it is sure to guarantee more
income. Likewise it is hard for me to blame students as they are apt to
seek out the quickest route through training. But does this encourage
the best training?

Because these programs are FAA sanctioned, these schools tend to focus
first on regulation, preparation for the airlines, and all the ways you
can get violated instead of how to fly an airplane well. Due to this,
the typical 141 graduate is an amazing encyclopedia of regulation that
can tell you what page and paragraph of the FAA bible describes the
current situation while simultaneously freezing at the yoke because they
have no idea how to read the weather ahead. But, as you fly headlong
into a level 5 or try to convince them you don¡¦t need to deviate a
hundred miles around a cloud the size of a VW Beetle, they WILL tell you
the technical term for that specific type of cloud.

Did you realize that a 141 school student:
¡E can get a full license in less hours
¡E can become a CFI in less hours
¡E is teaching the next class of students
¡E is allowed to do this because the program is a certified FAA approved
program

Knowing pilots are inherently cheap, I can confidently say that most are
tempted to get excited about fewer training hours but answer these
questions: How many of the ¡§highest quality products¡¨ in the world come
from ¡§sweatshops¡¨ or the phrase ¡§FAA approved", how many high schools
let sophomores teach the freshman, and how many people put their best
into ¡§sweatshop¡¨ style jobs? NONE¡K¡Kand WHY? Do I really have to
explain?. Strangely, it is never advertised that most 141 students
don¡¦t actually earn those ratings quicker. Yet with all this, those at
the top of aviation continue to support these schools in the interest of
pumping out pilots.

ON the positive side, I have flown with many 141 graduates and most of
them have a great pilot inside dying to come out. In fact, many of
them have great unused skills and knowledge. The only problem is that
their school did them a disservice in their training. Years ago when
I was spending the winter in the Keys, I helped pump gas at an FBO and
was witness to one of the most ridiculous aviation spectacles ever seen.
Back then most every Saturday brought a flight of 10-15 Embry Riddle
planes to the Marathon airport that would somehow arrive together. I
watched this over and over trying to figure it out until I had to ask
one of the student pilots what was going on. It turned out they were
doing their long cross countries to one of two syllabus approved
airports; DAYTONA TO MARATHON KEY. Go look at a map and tell me what
you would learn doing this long cross country, flying down the beach in
formation with 12 or so others, while following the wealthiest airline
offspring who happens to have a GPS . Today whenever I run into an
Embry grad I mention this to them and they all know exactly what I am
talking about.

But what you may have missed in this example was the fact that these
schools are pumping out pilots like crazy. This is a great opportunity
in disguise. Our aviation organizations need to be bringing these
pilots into our flock with the intention of making ¡§real pilots¡¨ out of
them. If this were the case, we could have many more people on our
side. The option is to have a future majority of pilots who say scary
things like ¡§ I will never fly another small plane¡¨ and who will gladly
sell out our freedoms and theirs to go along with an airlines efforts to
get user fees passed. All because they believe it will save their
jobs. These are the pilots of tomorrow. Bring them in or be cursed by
them later.

Is there anything else that could be done? As long as the FAA
continues to support (promote) these programs it is unlikely. But if
aviation as a whole would insist on a change in their methods, something
could be done. My suggestions would be to make the hour requirement
for a CFI higher, and make any flight school eligible to instruct and
receive payment from students using student loans and grants. This
would encourage a more professional and qualified group of instructors
and create the opportunity for students to learn from smaller flying
oriented organizations.

Once again, we find ourselves asking "Why is it so?" . . .

Dear Mr. Pie,

You seem to have a problem with 141 schools. Do you have a clue as to
what a school must to to be a Part 141 school? If not
http://www.gofir.com/fars/part141/frame.htm

Just like Part 61 there are good and there are bad.




RC_Moonpie wrote:


Did you realize that a 141 school student:
‧ can get a full license in less hours
‧ can become a CFI in less hours
‧ is teaching the next class of students
‧ is allowed to do this because the program is a certified FAA approved
program

Please observe the oxygen requirements in the regs.

--
Regards, BobF.
"RC_Moonpie" wrote in message
...
Many of you may not know these places by the phrase "141 school" so I
will give you some great ways to spot them. If the school is a
university flight department, if the name includes the word Academy, or
if their ad says anything that refers to training pilots for an airline
position it is a 141 school and you should carefully consider sending
anyone there. Here¡¦s your quick evaluation test: Do I want my
offspring to be a pilot or do I want them to be a regulation expert with
average skills? If it¡¦s the first, you should consider finding
another school.

Now if you happen to be a 141 graduate, please do not take this
personally. I know many pilots who made it through a 141 school
without the skills learned prior being stripped from them. If you are
a 141 grad and you get this newsletter, you likely know better than
anyone what I am talking about. And if you run a 141 school, there is
a chance you are one of the few who have received FAA approval despite
your good reputation. With that said, let¡¦s get to the meat of the
subject.

Why do people go to these schools and why do flight schools go to a 141
method of training? 141 Schools are typically accelerated programs that
are eligible for government grants, and whose students are eligible for
student loans. For this reason, it is very hard for me to blame a
flight school that chooses this route as it is sure to guarantee more
income. Likewise it is hard for me to blame students as they are apt to
seek out the quickest route through training. But does this encourage
the best training?

Because these programs are FAA sanctioned, these schools tend to focus
first on regulation, preparation for the airlines, and all the ways you
can get violated instead of how to fly an airplane well. Due to this,
the typical 141 graduate is an amazing encyclopedia of regulation that
can tell you what page and paragraph of the FAA bible describes the
current situation while simultaneously freezing at the yoke because they
have no idea how to read the weather ahead. But, as you fly headlong
into a level 5 or try to convince them you don¡¦t need to deviate a
hundred miles around a cloud the size of a VW Beetle, they WILL tell you
the technical term for that specific type of cloud.

Did you realize that a 141 school student:
¡E can get a full license in less hours
¡E can become a CFI in less hours
¡E is teaching the next class of students
¡E is allowed to do this because the program is a certified FAA approved
program

Knowing pilots are inherently cheap, I can confidently say that most are
tempted to get excited about fewer training hours but answer these
questions: How many of the ¡§highest quality products¡¨ in the world come
from ¡§sweatshops¡¨ or the phrase ¡§FAA approved", how many high schools
let sophomores teach the freshman, and how many people put their best
into ¡§sweatshop¡¨ style jobs? NONE¡K¡Kand WHY? Do I really have to
explain?. Strangely, it is never advertised that most 141 students
don¡¦t actually earn those ratings quicker. Yet with all this, those at
the top of aviation continue to support these schools in the interest of
pumping out pilots.

ON the positive side, I have flown with many 141 graduates and most of
them have a great pilot inside dying to come out. In fact, many of
them have great unused skills and knowledge. The only problem is that
their school did them a disservice in their training. Years ago when
I was spending the winter in the Keys, I helped pump gas at an FBO and
was witness to one of the most ridiculous aviation spectacles ever seen.
Back then most every Saturday brought a flight of 10-15 Embry Riddle
planes to the Marathon airport that would somehow arrive together. I
watched this over and over trying to figure it out until I had to ask
one of the student pilots what was going on. It turned out they were
doing their long cross countries to one of two syllabus approved
airports; DAYTONA TO MARATHON KEY. Go look at a map and tell me what
you would learn doing this long cross country, flying down the beach in
formation with 12 or so others, while following the wealthiest airline
offspring who happens to have a GPS . Today whenever I run into an
Embry grad I mention this to them and they all know exactly what I am
talking about.

But what you may have missed in this example was the fact that these
schools are pumping out pilots like crazy. This is a great opportunity
in disguise. Our aviation organizations need to be bringing these
pilots into our flock with the intention of making ¡§real pilots¡¨ out of
them. If this were the case, we could have many more people on our
side. The option is to have a future majority of pilots who say scary
things like ¡§ I will never fly another small plane¡¨ and who will gladly
sell out our freedoms and theirs to go along with an airlines efforts to
get user fees passed. All because they believe it will save their
jobs. These are the pilots of tomorrow. Bring them in or be cursed by
them later.

Is there anything else that could be done? As long as the FAA
continues to support (promote) these programs it is unlikely. But if
aviation as a whole would insist on a change in their methods, something
could be done. My suggestions would be to make the hour requirement
for a CFI higher, and make any flight school eligible to instruct and
receive payment from students using student loans and grants. This
would encourage a more professional and qualified group of instructors
and create the opportunity for students to learn from smaller flying
oriented organizations.

Once again, we find ourselves asking "Why is it so?" . . .

On Apr 28, 12:53*pm, RC_Moonpie wrote:
Many of you may not know these places by the phrase "141 school" so I
will give you some great ways to spot them. * If the school is a
university flight department, if the name includes the word Academy, *or
if their ad says anything that refers to training pilots for an airline
position it is a 141 school and you should carefully consider sending
anyone there. * *

No. A 141 school is a flight school that holds an FAA part 141
certificate. Universities may or may not hold 141 certificates. The
main benefit of part 141 is the ability to finance through VA loans.
You can also get an instrument rating without the 50 hours cross
country time. Otherwise, its about the same for students. You cannot
tell if an operation is part 141 without asking or looking them up at
your FSDO.

-Robert, CFII

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:15:18 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:

On Apr 28, 12:53*pm, RC_Moonpie wrote:
Many of you may not know these places by the phrase "141 school" so I
will give you some great ways to spot them. * If the school is a
university flight department, if the name includes the word Academy, *or
if their ad says anything that refers to training pilots for an airline
position it is a 141 school and you should carefully consider sending
anyone there. * *

No. A 141 school is a flight school that holds an FAA part 141
certificate. Universities may or may not hold 141 certificates. The
main benefit of part 141 is the ability to finance through VA loans.
You can also get an instrument rating without the 50 hours cross
country time. Otherwise, its about the same for students. You cannot
tell if an operation is part 141 without asking or looking them up at
your FSDO.

-Robert, CFII

http://www.leebottom.com/nordo/ARCHIVES/dec2005.htm

On May 1, 11:26*am, RC_Moonpie wrote:
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:15:18 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:

http://www.leebottom.com/nordo/ARCHIVES/dec2005.htm- Hide quoted text -

Posting your opinion on the internet doesn't make it true. It still
does not show any evidence or studies to say that 141 schools are not
great. It also includes numerous factual errors.

-Robert

RC_Moonpie wrote:
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:15:18 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:

On Apr 28, 12:53 pm, RC_Moonpie wrote:
Many of you may not know these places by the phrase "141 school" so I
will give you some great ways to spot them. If the school is a
university flight department, if the name includes the word Academy, or
if their ad says anything that refers to training pilots for an airline
position it is a 141 school and you should carefully consider sending
anyone there.
No. A 141 school is a flight school that holds an FAA part 141
certificate. Universities may or may not hold 141 certificates. The
main benefit of part 141 is the ability to finance through VA loans.
You can also get an instrument rating without the 50 hours cross
country time. Otherwise, its about the same for students. You cannot
tell if an operation is part 141 without asking or looking them up at
your FSDO.

-Robert, CFII

http://www.leebottom.com/nordo/ARCHIVES/dec2005.htm

You do realize that those same freshly certificated CFIs can train under
Part 61 as well don't you? At least at a Part 141 school they are
supervised by a chief instructor who...

(b) For a course of training leading to
the issuance of a recreational or private
pilot certificate or rating, a chief
instructor must have:
(1) At least 1,000 hours as pilot in
command; and
(2) Primary flight training experience,
acquired as either a certificated
flight instructor or an instructor in a
military pilot flight training program,
or a combination thereof, consisting of
at least—
(i) 2 years and a total of 500 flight
hours; or
(ii) 1,000 flight hours.
(c) For a course of training leading to
the issuance of an instrument rating or
a rating with instrument privileges, a
chief instructor must have:
(1) At least 100 hours of flight time
under actual or simulated instrument
conditions;
(2) At least 1,000 hours as pilot in
command; and
(3) Instrument flight instructor experience,
acquired as either a certificated
flight instructor-instrument or an instructor
in a military pilot flight
training program, or a combination
thereof, consisting of at least—
(i) 2 years and a total of 250 flight
hours; or
(ii) 400 flight hours.
(d) For a course of training other
than one leading to the issuance of a
recreational or private pilot certificate
or rating, or an instrument rating or a
rating with instrument privileges, a
chief instructor must have:
(1) At least 2,000 hours as pilot in
command; and
(2) Flight training experience, acquired
as either a certificated flight instructor
or an instructor in a military
pilot flight training program, or a combination
thereof, consisting of at
least—
(i) 3 years and a total of 1,000 flight
hours; or
(ii) 1,500 flight hours.
(e) To be eligible for designation as
chief instructor for a ground school
course, a person must have 1 year of
experience as a ground school instructor
at a certificated pilot school.


An even the assistant chief instructor at a part 141 school must...

(b) For a course of training leading to
the issuance of a recreational or private
pilot certificate or rating, an assistant
chief instructor must have:
(1) At least 500 hours as pilot in command;
and
VerDate Dec132002 14:30 Jan 18, 2003 Jkt 200043 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt
8010 Sfmt 8010 Y:\SGML\200043T.XXX 200043T
11
Federal Aviation Administration, DOT § 141.37
(2) Flight training experience, acquired
as either a certificated flight instructor
or an instructor in a military
pilot flight training program, or a combination
thereof, consisting of at
least—
(i) 1 year and a total of 250 flight
hours; or
(ii) 500 flight hours.
(c) For a course of training leading to
the issuance of an instrument rating or
a rating with instrument privileges, an
assistant chief flight instructor must
have:
(1) At least 50 hours of flight time
under actual or simulated instrument
conditions;
(2) At least 500 hours as pilot in command;
and
(3) Instrument flight instructor experience,
acquired as either a certificated
flight instructor-instrument or an instructor
in a military pilot flight
training program, or a combination
thereof, consisting of at least—
(i) 1 year and a total of 125 flight
hours; or
(ii) 200 flight hours.
(d) For a course of training other
than one leading to the issuance of a
recreational or private pilot certificate
or rating, or an instrument rating or a
rating with instrument privileges, an
assistant chief instructor must have:
(1) At least 1,000 hours as pilot in
command; and
(2) Flight training experience, acquired
as either a certificated flight instructor
or an instructor in a military
pilot flight training program, or a combination
thereof, consisting of at
least—
(i) 11?2 years and a total of 500 flight
hours; or
(ii) 750 flight hours.
(e) To be eligible for designation as
an assistant chief instructor for a
ground school course, a person must
have 6 months of experience as a
ground school instructor at a certificated
pilot school.

On Thu, 01 May 2008 15:18:13 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:

No. A 141 school is a flight school that holds an FAA part 141
certificate. Universities may or may not hold 141 certificates. The
main benefit of part 141 is the ability to finance through VA loans.
You can also get an instrument rating without the 50 hours cross
country time. Otherwise, its about the same for students. You cannot
tell if an operation is part 141 without asking or looking them up at
your FSDO.

-Robert, CFII

http://www.leebottom.com/nordo/ARCHIVES/dec2005.htm

You do realize that those same freshly certificated CFIs can train under
Part 61 as well don't you? At least at a Part 141 school they are
supervised by a chief instructor who...

snipped rambling bull****

Do you relly think I was going to read all that crap?

RC_Moonpie wrote:
On Thu, 01 May 2008 15:18:13 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:

No. A 141 school is a flight school that holds an FAA part 141
certificate. Universities may or may not hold 141 certificates. The
main benefit of part 141 is the ability to finance through VA loans.
You can also get an instrument rating without the 50 hours cross
country time. Otherwise, its about the same for students. You cannot
tell if an operation is part 141 without asking or looking them up at
your FSDO.

-Robert, CFII
http://www.leebottom.com/nordo/ARCHIVES/dec2005.htm
You do realize that those same freshly certificated CFIs can train under
Part 61 as well don't you? At least at a Part 141 school they are
supervised by a chief instructor who...

snipped rambling bull****

Do you relly think I was going to read all that crap?


I assume you are classifying as rambling bull**** the FAR which govern
something you seem to have such a hard-on about, so yes one would hope
that if you were interested enough to come out of the woodwork and bash
something that you would take the couple of minutes to read the
regulation. THe fact that you didn't says a lot about you.

On Apr 28, 12:53 pm, RC_Moonpie wrote:

Did you realize that a 141 school student:
¡E can get a full license in less hours
¡E can become a CFI in less hours
¡E is teaching the next class of students
¡E is allowed to do this because the program is a certified FAA approved
program

This is very odd considering the FAA has never issued a license to
anyone. Technically you can earn your private pilot certificate in 35
hrs vs 40 at a 141 school but I've only met one student in my life who
took a checkride with less than 40 hours.
The rest of what you say is just plain baseless crap. You site no
studies or statistics to prove your point because there are none.

-Robert, CFII