North-Up versus Direction-Up?

ContestID67 wrote:

OK, lets think about using north-up. My mind would be saying
something like, "I am pointing south-east because the compass says so
(or the glider icon) and I want to roll out north. Now, which
direction am I thermalling? Are there 90 degress or 270 degrees to
go? Ok, 270 degrees away, I should be there in 15 seconds. Wait, I
just went into sink, let's change that bank angle. Where was north
again? Darn, in the Midwest every direction looks identical! Oops,
I missed my exit point. I'll have to take one more circle at the top
of this thermal in weak lift. Didn't Moffat say that was a no-no?
Now, why ARE those other pilots leaving this thermal so soon?"

John, it's not that hard! The goal line remains steady while the track
line rotates. When the track line approaches the goal line, you can roll
out and go! Easy. If you aren't using a goal, you can still easily tell
which direction the track line is pointing and roll out on a North heading.

In reality, most pilots, most of the time, already know which way to go
because they remember what they were heading towards before they began
to circle. So, they don't even need to spend any time looking at the
PDA. Most of the time I'm thermalling, the map is covered by Mobile's
"Thermalling Assistant", so it doesn't matter what the map is doing.

The problem with Track Up while circling is it's hard to see what my
drift is (wind confirmation), to study the map, or pick another goal,
or get the details on some airspace because the map is moving. All these
are so much easier when the map is steady - and THAT'S how I reduce my
cockpit workload.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

This discussion is always really fun to watch :-)

Maybe I spent too much time in my youth playing video game where you
drove some tank/helicopter/spaceship around a screen that was always
"north up".

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.

I can't imagine using the PDA to try and roll out on a heading !
There has to be _something_ for a visual reference. Isn't there ?
Cloud, sun, ?

Todd Smith
3S

It's been a long time since I worked on the development of Tornado nav/
attack system but my recollection is the pilot's map display had the
option to select North up. *The back seat display was a combined radar/
map so little value in overlaying a North up map on the radar scope.

Ah those we the days - film strips, synchros, and stepper motors!
Something you could see working.

Andy

F-15E (and similar) have moving maps that can be set North or Track/
Heading up. North up for editing a route on the fly, etc. Remarkably
similar to our PDA software - except maps are digitized paper maps of
different scales, which really calls for North up to read the text!

I liked the way the Tornado overlaid the map on the radar return -
neat way to check system accuracy.

Kirk

On Dec 17, 1:06*pm, toad wrote:

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. * Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.


Todd - The question still comes down to this: When heading in a non-
north direction and your map is displaying north-up, don't you have to
do some mental gymnastics to figure out how the PDA map features (like
mountain peaks and lakes and towns) relate to what's in front of the
nose of the glider?

I'm very much in agreement with the "Track Up" crowd. I don't think
of it like a map in a car because for that I'm going to pull off to
the side of the road and _study_ it. When I'm flying I want to be
able to glance down, and then get my eyes back _outside_. Having the
map already showing me exactly what I expect to see out the front of
the canopy makes it easy.

But I think your comments really illuminate the deeper reason for the
big divide on this topic: There are people who use their GPS map like
a paper map - a la pre-flight planning; and then there are people who
use it differently - like as an "synthetic vision" or "alternative
projection" tool. They look at the moving map as a way to view their
current situation, but as if their eyeballs could view everything
around themselves for miles; or as if they could have an out-of-body
experience and see themselves from above. So as a result, this type
of person likes to have the map reflect the reality they see outside
at that moment; because they're trying to quickly and easily compare
and contrast the two "visions" in real-time. I think the "paper-map
user" views things in a very different way, but not being that type of
user I cannot comment more deeply on what their thought process is.

Take care,

--Noel
(Who doesn't think that one is inherently better than the other - just
that some people process things differently in their mind, and thus
can get greater use out of one or the other depending on how their
brain works)

On Dec 17, 5:02*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Dec 17, 1:06*pm, toad wrote:

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. * Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.

Todd - The question still comes down to this: *When heading in a non-
north direction and your map is displaying north-up, don't you have to
do some mental gymnastics to figure out how the PDA map features (like
mountain peaks and lakes and towns) relate to what's in front of the
nose of the glider?

Sure, some mental gymnastics are required, but they don't take any
significant time, because I have done it that way for so long.

I'm very much in agreement with the "Track Up" crowd. *I don't think
of it like a map in a car because for that I'm going to pull off to
the side of the road and _study_ it. *When I'm flying I want to be
able to glance down, and then get my eyes back _outside_. *Having the
map already showing me exactly what I expect to see out the front of
the canopy makes it easy.

I agree about the "eyes outside", but track up mode is slower for me
than north up.

But I think your comments really illuminate the deeper reason for the
big divide on this topic: *There are people who use their GPS map like
a paper map - a la pre-flight planning; and then there are people who
use it differently - like as an "synthetic vision" or "alternative
projection" tool. *They look at the moving map as a way to view their
current situation, but as if their eyeballs could view everything
around themselves for miles; or as if they could have an out-of-body
experience and see *themselves from above. *So as a result, this type
of person likes to have the map reflect the reality they see outside
at that moment; because they're trying to quickly and easily compare
and contrast the two "visions" in real-time. *I think the "paper-map
user" views things in a very different way, but not being that type of
user I cannot comment more deeply on what their thought process is.

That's a good description. I prefer the map picture to stay
constant. It allows me to pick up map features easier with a quick
glance at the map. The shape of things doesn't change depending on my
heading.

I can use the glider icon to easily identify relative direction to
items in reference to fwd/aft and left/right.


Take care,

--Noel
(Who doesn't think that one is inherently better than the other - just
that some people process things differently in their mind, and thus
can get greater use out of one or the other depending on how their
brain works)

Agreed.

I have the same conversation with sailors too. Some like one, some
the other.

toad wrote:

That's a good description. I prefer the map picture to stay
constant. It allows me to pick up map features easier with a quick
glance at the map. The shape of things doesn't change depending on my
heading.

What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation


I can use the glider icon to easily identify relative direction to
items in reference to fwd/aft and left/right.

That's how I did it when I was using a paper map, except I had to
imagine where the glider was.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric Greenwell wrote:
What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation

Landing sites in the database are high priority, but also navigation
features like mountains, lakes, rivers and roads are what I want to
see. If I can't easily see a landing site directly, I want to know
what kind of terrain features point it out.

Todd Smith
3S

toad wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation

Landing sites in the database are high priority, but also navigation
features like mountains, lakes, rivers and roads are what I want to
see. If I can't easily see a landing site directly, I want to know
what kind of terrain features point it out.

Is this sort of a distrust of the GPS? It will take you there, and it's
only the last few miles where actually picking out the airport becomes
useful.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Dec 17, 9:34*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
toad wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation

Landing sites in the database are high priority, but also navigation
features like mountains, lakes, rivers and roads are what I want to
see. *If I can't easily see a landing site directly, I want to know
what kind of terrain features point it out.

Is this sort of a distrust of the GPS? It will take you there, and it's
only the last few miles where actually picking out the airport becomes
useful.

It's more that I like to actually see things than distrust per se.
But I do prefer to get a visual sighting before arrival. Especially
for low final glides. I also like to sight things for later
reference.

Todd

Flying: Course Up

Driving: North Up



Jack