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Downwind Landings
What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind? Will you land
knowing you have a 5 knot tailwind? 10 knots? At what point will you "flip" the pattern to takeoff or land into the wind? Me? I'm a 5 knot kind of guy (but I fly a taildragger)... I landed at 3 different fields today where the established pattern resulted in a landing with a quartering 7 knot (or more) tailwind, with some mild gusts thrown in for good measure. At the first field, I was careless enough to assume the traffic was using the runway facing the wind. The downwind landing came as a bit of a surprise, then I looked at the wind sock - oops... At the other two fields, I announced my position and intentions and waited (360's on the downwind) until I could land into the wind without interfering with aircraft already in the pattern. And what is the correct radio phraseology to say: "Fellas, it is time to reverse the pattern - you're taking off and landing downwind.." ? |
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Downwind Landings
On Sep 22, 11:01 pm, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind? Will you land knowing you have a 5 knot tailwind? 10 knots? At what point will you "flip" the pattern to takeoff or land into the wind? Me? I'm a 5 knot kind of guy (but I fly a taildragger)... I landed at 3 different fields today where the established pattern resulted in a landing with a quartering 7 knot (or more) tailwind, with some mild gusts thrown in for good measure. At the first field, I was careless enough to assume the traffic was using the runway facing the wind. The downwind landing came as a bit of a surprise, then I looked at the wind sock - oops... At the other two fields, I announced my position and intentions and waited (360's on the downwind) until I could land into the wind without interfering with aircraft already in the pattern. And what is the correct radio phraseology to say: "Fellas, it is time to reverse the pattern - you're taking off and landing downwind.." ? One can easily do the math to get a ballpark figure. Landing distance increases as the square of the approach ground speed. If the approach speed is 60, and you have a 10 knot wind, your landing distance will increase by 35%.For 20 knots it increases by 75%. For 30 knots, it more than doubles. A 5 knot limit for short runways makes sense; 10 knots if you really know what you are doing. I would not atempt anything higher unless it is a super long runway. |
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Downwind Landings
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
: What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind? Will you land knowing you have a 5 knot tailwind? 10 knots? At what point will you "flip" the pattern to takeoff or land into the wind? It rather depends on the runway... My threshold on a 3000' runway is smaller than my threshold on a 6000' runway. |
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Downwind Landings
Kyle Boatright wrote:
And what is the correct radio phraseology to say: "Fellas, it is time to reverse the pattern - you're taking off and landing downwind.." ? This is the part I'm interested in hearing comments on. -- Oz Lander. Straight and Level Forum. http://z7.invisionfree.com/Straight_...ex.php?act=idx |
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Downwind Landings
On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:01:54 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote in : What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind? That is dependent on the length of the runway(s), its gradient/slope, surface, and the performance of the particular aircraft. And what is the correct radio phraseology to say: "Fellas, it is time to reverse the pattern - you're taking off and landing downwind.." ? The correct radio phraseology for operating at an uncontrolled field is, Podunk airport traffic, Cessna 123 entering left downwind for runway 18, Podunk traffic. Nothing changes. You self-announce your intentions, keep your eyes open for conflicting traffic, and give right of way in accordance with CFR 14 § 91.113 Right-of-way rules: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text... .1.3.10.2.4.7 The tricky part of downwind landings is the necessity to extend your traffic pattern's Downwind Leg (actually against the wind in the case of a downwind landing) WELL BEYOND (perhaps double or more) what you are accustomed to in a normal into-the-wind landing. If you fail to do this, you will overshoot. There's also the issue of whether to takeoff into or with the wind on runways that aren't level.... http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...5?dmode=source An average force derivation gives the following formula for the "breakeven headwind," i.e., the headwind of such speed that it's a wash whether you take off into the headwind up hill or take off with that tailwind down hill: Vhw,breakeven = Slope in degrees * distance to lift off with no wind, no slope / (5*speed at lift off in KTAS) where Vhw,breakeven is in knots and the distance to lift off is in feet. With the same "constant" average force assumption the same should be true for landing, making obvious changes. In actual fact the above formula is a slight "simplification" of a somewhat more complicated one. The thing that messes up a lot of people is that you can have three airplanes ready to take off on the same strip under the same conditions and one of them (higher powered) is best off to go uphill into the wind, one of them best off downhill with the wind, and with the third it makes no difference (unless there are other considerations like terrain clearance, etc.) Hope this helps more than it confuses. John T. Lowry |
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Downwind Landings
The pilot in command is responsible for the safety of the flight. If I
arrive at a non towered field and notice the pattern doesn't reflect the current winds I observe who was there first and in what order, I then make a radio call announcing my intentions of reversing the pattern, I let those before me to do whatever please and when its my turn I fly the pattern that is best for my safety. I dread the thought of sitting at an FAA/NTSB inquiry and stating the " yeah they were landing downwind so I did it too" excuse....... Kinda likesaying" all the others jumped off the cliff so I did it too".. :).. Ben N801BH www.haaspowerair.com On Sep 23, 5:26 am, "Oz Lander" wrote: Kyle Boatright wrote: And what is the correct radio phraseology to say: "Fellas, it is time to reverse the pattern - you're taking off and landing downwind.." ? This is the part I'm interested in hearing comments on. -- Oz Lander. Straight and Level Forum.http://z7.invisionfree.com/Straight_...ex.php?act=idx |
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Downwind Landings
On Sep 22, 8:01 pm, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind? Will you land knowing you have a 5 knot tailwind? 10 knots? At what point will you "flip" the pattern to takeoff or land into the wind? Me? I'm a 5 knot kind of guy (but I fly a taildragger)... I landed at 3 different fields today where the established pattern resulted in a landing with a quartering 7 knot (or more) tailwind, with some mild gusts thrown in for good measure. Part of instrument training is to ensure students can land correctly with a stiff tailwind (given a proper length runway). Instrument approaches don't always line up with the wind. -Robert, CFII |
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Downwind Landings
"Kyle Boatright" What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind? Runway length. Jim |
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Downwind Landings
"Jim Burns" wrote in message ... "Kyle Boatright" What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind? Runway length. Jim Controllability doesn't enter into equation? It does for me. With a 10 knot headwind, I have lots of rudder authority at 10 or 20 knots of groundspeed on roll-out. With a 10 knot tailwind, there is no rudder authority at 10 knots of groundspeed. There is always the consideration of an engine failure. On takeoff or landing, I'd prefer to be pointed into the wind if the prop stops, rather than having to land downwind or attempt a low altitude turn into the wind... KB |
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Downwind Landings
Kyle Boatright wrote:
"Jim Burns" wrote in message ... "Kyle Boatright" What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind? Runway length. Jim Controllability doesn't enter into equation? It does for me. With a 10 knot headwind, I have lots of rudder authority at 10 or 20 knots of groundspeed on roll-out. With a 10 knot tailwind, there is no rudder authority at 10 knots of groundspeed. There is always the consideration of an engine failure. On takeoff or landing, I'd prefer to be pointed into the wind if the prop stops, rather than having to land downwind or attempt a low altitude turn into the wind... It would depend on what aircraft type you fly. With Cessna's and Piper's, there is no need for rudder authority below 30 knots or even higher. I've never flown an airplane with a free castering nose wheel, but I suspect rudder authority is more important there, however, it still seems like the brakes would work fine for directional control at 10 knots. Matt |
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