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#61
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"Richard Russell" wrote in message ... snipped... For what its worth, I give you both credit for dropping your squabble before it became one of the 100 back and forth posts I've seen in these forums. Obviously both of you are/were good pilots and have alot to offer. Usenet (like a classroom) is not the best place to have detailed discussions about flying, and disagreements will occur. I'm glad you both can agree to disagree and move on so we all don't need to read about your differences. In all sincerity - Thank You. z I agree. It's painful for us low-time mortals to listen to two guys that each have a lot to offer arguing like old ladies. It's kinda like a kid listneing to his parents having a fight. Look forward to many more constructive posts from both of you. Rich Russell Ditto for you on my answer to zatatime, only for you, it wasn't even an original thought. You're even less productive than he is.You can't even write your own material. Sorry, but for me, people like you two who make these "jump on corrective posts after the fact simply don't cut it. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired for private email; make necessary changes between ( ) dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net I'm sorry that you took it that way. As far as productivity levels, I have been flying for two years and you have been flying for two lifetimes. I would certainly hope that you have more to offer. That is the natural order of things in this world. You have also exhibited a high level of patience and tolerance with those that are less knowledgeble, often taking the time to post long and very helpful explanations for complex concepts. The words mentor and role-model come to mind. That is why I made my comment. It is not typical to see you get decend from that well earned status into a non-technical usenet ****ing match. I will still seek out your posts and hope to learn from them. I'll thank you in advance because, much to your relief, you will not hear from me again. (By the way, you may have already been too fired up to realize it, but my post was intended as more of a compliment than anything else. No ill will was intended.) Rich Russell You're right, I am relieved. Just not the least bit interested. Lurk as you please, or don't lurk as you please. That's completely up to you. This is Usenet, not the Pilots Buddy Association. Usenet by definition is a hostile environment. The sooner you learn this, the quicker you will stop making idiotic posts like you just did and wise up. This time you just lost communication with me. perhaps next time you might lose something you actually value! Just that fact that we're having this "little talk" is positive proof that your post was a bad move.....a complete negative result! What have you gained? What have you learned? I'm sure in your self righteousness you feel you have learned that I'm "not what you thought I was" and that "you're disappointed in me". Who cares? I sure don't!!! Just forget me as someone who will be friendly to you in the future and move on to someone else. Life on Usenet goes on! :-) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired for private email; make necessary changes between ( ) dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net |
#62
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There seem to be 2 schools of thought on this wheelie vs 3 pointer
thing. Ones says thatyou plan it out well in advance (at least short final) and do either a wheelie or 3 pointer. The other seems to say it can go either way. I've read someone who said that picking 1 or the other just before touchdown is a good training exercise. This has got to be immensely confusing for many but I feel like I get the sense in both! First, different conditions faced by different a/c clearly suggest one method over the other. In my Maule, it's almost always a 3 pointer with flaps and airspeed determined by the conditions. So, I plan what it's going to be well in advance. For example, 20 knot xwind means a 0 flap 3 pointer at 65 mph. (per Dudley and others) Second, real time conditions can mean a the mains touch first or all 3 or even the tail first. Based on that, I finish the landing accordinging. If the mains touch first, I push slightly to keep them on, that is, I do a wheelie. If all 3 touch, then a pull to keep it all planted on, that is, I do 3 pointer. If the tail touches first, I just hold on or pull a bit, all 3 are going to be in contact very quickly and they are going to stay there, no choice. (per Selway - is that what you meant?) I was trained to do the first but I've learned to do the 2nd. Recognizing and achieving the right attitude comes with time... but responding properly and instantly seems to me to be a mark of proficiency T o d d P a t t i s t wrote: wrote: I do have a lot of time in aircraft with the wheel in the rear and god only knows how many thousands of landings with them (perhaps 20-30,000+?). ... I never knew if it was going to be a 3 point or a wheel landing. I don't see how you can make 20-30,000+ landings and not get a good feel for the attitude of the aircraft. Heck, the ground's right there, so you've got a great attitude reference. If it's tail low, the tail hits first. A bit higher it's 3-pt. Higher still, it's a wheel landing. "It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." Wilbur Wright |
#63
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I'll tell you what it's worth. These "after the fact, you have intruded on my space but I forgive you" sentiments are really a royal pain the butt and serve no positive purpose. Boy did you miss the point. I didn't forgive you for anything. I was thanking you for setting a good example. In fact, the opposite is true. Usenet is bad enough with those of us who don't like each other and don't get along without adding your "holier then thou" comment AFTER two people have settled something that didn't involve you. My approach was not one of a Holier than thou attitude, just one guy saying thanks to another for doing something right. And by the way it did involve me, and countless others who read entire threads so they can learn something, and get frustrated when wars overcome what was a constructive thread. snip BTW, any further continuance of ANY kind with my answer to your post is nothing more then added proof that all you have done here is to produce a negative result. Not entirely. Hopefully you will see that my intentions were not of ill intent, and that courteous behavior is a positive trait, not a negative one. If you don't see this though, and need to respond in like fashion to these comments, you will have proven your point from the context of your post, not mine. Hey now....wasn't THIS little venture worth doing ?????? :-)))) Yes, I had at least a 50% success rate from my post. In Usenet that's pretty damned good. z |
#64
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Todd
The transition time between 2 vs 3 point is a relatively short one on takeoff or landing! To combine the techniques you describe are fine if they work for you. Here is "MY" take on it for what its worth. When I am working, I don't make any money unless the spray handle is ON and any time on the ground cuts into my income. So, I try to minimize that time by making the shortest possible takeoff, and the shortest possible landing that puts me very close to the load ramp. Very common practice in ag aviation. Most of the time we work in low wind conditions to avoid any chemical drift, and often the DA is high with temps. So, the vast majority of my landings are wheel landings at minimum speed and the tail drops immediately when I cut the power - regardless if piston or turbine. I'll keep forward pressure on the controls until the tail comes down and then apply full aft stick to keep it there as well as assist in steering. Nearly all of the modern spray planes have a locking tailwheel that is unlocked by a full forward movement of the stick which pulls the locking pin out of detent by means of a cable attached to the elevator controls. It requires an immediate turn to keep the pin from dropping back into detent and locking the tailwheel again. That is something that takes a little getting used to. Sometimes when it won't unlock, you add power and forward stick to get the tail up off the ground while you do a delicate balancing act turn using differential braking. I learned that technique in the mid 60's when we were loading on a levee and didn't have room to turn and keep the tail on the levee. That too took some getting used to but after a little practice it was Ho-Hum. Per your technique of 0 flap and 65 mph, what is happening while you dissipate the additional speed? Is it not possible to land slower using judicious power to touch down well under control, and with little flying speed to get rid of once you are firmly planted with all 3? And, a technique I have used many times on a variety of strips, is to make the final approach at an angle into the wind and touch down on the downwind side of the runway crosswind. That makes my landing roll more into the wind and takes out some of the XW component. There have been times when I had no choice but to use that technique in both single and twins.How severe an angle you can make of course depends on the width of the runway, wind velocity, etc. After touchdown you let the wind push you back towards the centerline and you end up parallel to the runway. That is the simplistic description but has worked for me. Forgive me if I have taken the discussion in a different direction but felt a more complete answer was called for. Cheers Rocky |
#65
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JS
You make me smile with that one! So many of the strips I have worked from are about 1200' and require reduced loads which is why I hate them. One I worked on in Egypt -300 meters - had corn growing at each end. As the corn grew it caused my wheels to drag through the tops. I've got some pics where you can see the strips where my gear trimmed the corn through the season! the landings never bothered me since you seldom need more than 500' for rollout. Regards Selway Kid (from the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness) |
#66
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Someone else pointed out here or maybe on the citabria group about the
advantage of hitting the tailwheel first. That is, if the tailwheel hits first, when the mains drop the angle of attack lessens reducing lift. Is this significant? I suppose that if the landing speed is as slow as it should be, it really doesn't matter. Personally I like landing as slow as reasonably possible. Less wear and tear on the tires and it's more fun. Dave 68 7ECA vincent p. norris wrote: Believe it or not, it's okay to roll the tailwheel first. There was no better way to get a pat on the back from our Navy instructors at Pensacola than hitting the tailwheel first. That was back in the days when airplanes had tailwheels, of course. vince norris |
#67
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"zatatime" wrote in message ... I'll tell you what it's worth. These "after the fact, you have intruded on my space but I forgive you" sentiments are really a royal pain the butt and serve no positive purpose. Boy did you miss the point. I didn't forgive you for anything. I was thanking you for setting a good example. In fact, the opposite is true. Usenet is bad enough with those of us who don't like each other and don't get along without adding your "holier then thou" comment AFTER two people have settled something that didn't involve you. My approach was not one of a Holier than thou attitude, just one guy saying thanks to another for doing something right. And by the way it did involve me, and countless others who read entire threads so they can learn something, and get frustrated when wars overcome what was a constructive thread. snip BTW, any further continuance of ANY kind with my answer to your post is nothing more then added proof that all you have done here is to produce a negative result. Not entirely. Hopefully you will see that my intentions were not of ill intent, and that courteous behavior is a positive trait, not a negative one. If you don't see this though, and need to respond in like fashion to these comments, you will have proven your point from the context of your post, not mine. Sorry, no sale. I have no doubt that YOU believe sincerely that your post held no ill intent. That's the trouble with people who post these little after "zingers". You don't actually realize, or even care what you are doing. All you see is your need to express yourself...to let the "usurpers" know the real meaning of life and how they should act in your presense. :-) Your post was exactly as I read it, a condescending, idiotic attempt at a demonstration of superiority through the use of veiled compliment. The oldest gag in the book, and it works with some of the dip****s. I just don't happen to be one of them. Your insulting my intelligence, and I don't suffer fools gladly. You clowns always make the same sophoroic mistake. You give it all away with the comma. You just can't stop without the adder can you? " and that courtious behavior is a positive trait". There it is, the kicker!!! What could possibly be more condescending than THIS statement to an adult. One thing I've learned about people like you is that you LOVE these compound sentences. The REAL intent of the post can always be found after the comma!! :-) Nope....you're a Usenet " I'm duty bound to keep everyone in line" type all right. I just don't need you. Hey now....wasn't THIS little venture worth doing ?????? :-)))) Yes, I had at least a 50% success rate from my post. In Usenet that's pretty damned good. Actually your odds are as off as your post was. When you post something like this to me, you have a 0 chance of success, which now you have learned. No great loss I'm sure for either one of us. It's Usenet!!! I can practically guarantee you that the two people you posted about with your little "aftershock zinger" will probably be talking again LONG before you and I are eye to eye again on this or any other forum. If not, that's Usenet as well!! Take care, so long, and may the good Lord take a liking to ya!! :-) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired for private email; make necessary changes between ( ) dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net |
#68
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On 14 Jan 2005 14:01:16 -0800, wrote:
Selway Kid (from the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness) Do you know Roland Turney at Bear Creek Lodge? Flies a Centurion. -- all the best, Dan Ford email (put Cubdriver in subject line) Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com the blog: www.danford.net |
#69
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Sorry...No I don't. I haven't flown in the backcountry there in a
number of years. My last guide work was NE of there in the Bob Marshall wilderness in Montana and we didn't have any fly-ins. Ol S&B |
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