If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#101
|
|||
|
|||
Or the fact that it would have no real world impact and would be seen as
being nice to the next of kin made it seem reasonable. "Courtesy" laws are usually rubber stamped by presidents,not refused for forever. The problem you run into is that I have no stake at all in the Pearl Harbour issue. I just like poking fun at mad people. "Standardized Minds" could not even qualify as "mad people". Cheers. |
#102
|
|||
|
|||
Denyav wrote in message ...
Firstly part of my deleted text, There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they were not watching the IJN. The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would be attacked. Really? Now two quotas from "recent" law the requesting exonoration of Kimmel: There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the secret sign and so on. It is really quite simple, look below and know people are fitting the evidence after the event. There was no "attack the US" message, let alone attack a specific location, the 14 part message was not a declaration of war, and the British and Dutch did not even receive that message, let alone a declaration of war. 1)"Numerous investigations following the attack on Pearl Harbor have documented that Adm.Kimmel and Lt.Gen.Short were not provided neccesary and critical intelligence that was available, that was foretold of war with Japan,that warned of imminent attack,and that would have alerted them to prepare for the attack,including such essential communiques as the Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot message of Sep.24,1941 and the message sent from IJ Foreign ministry to Japanase Ambassador in US from Dec 6 to 7 1941,known as fourteen part message". Congratulations on noting that after the event people could fit the pre attack messages into the proven chain of events. Now go back and note the key part of the 14 part message was about having no point in further negotiations, not a declaration of war. The timing of the note was an important factor, it fitted with first light in the Midway/Guam area, and early morning in the Philippines. Note by the way the grid message, the one that wanted the location as well as the number of ships in harbour, was named bomb plot after the attack, not before. In any case a bomb plot is the diagram of the fall of the bombs, an after the attack report. Simply put the US "knew" it could not immediately go to war to defend European colonies in Asia. The Japanese military government "knew" the best time for the US to declare war was at the start of fighting. The Japanese had to make the decision. There were no resources needed by the Japanese from the Philippines. 2)"On July 1997 Adm.Richardson USN (Ret) responded to Dorn report with his own study which confirmed the findings of the Naval Court of Inquiry and and Army Pearl Harbor Board of Investigations and established ,among other facts,that the war effert in 1941 was undermined by a restrictive distrubution policy,and the degree to which the commanders of US forces in Hawai were not alerted about impending attack was directly attributable to the witholding of intelligence from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short". Congratulations in noting the US discovered it had short changed its field commanders. That is completely separate to the US knowing when and where attacks would occur, plus there is still the problem of whether the commanders would do anything. The USN had known for years the IJN warplan was to await the USN in the eastern Pacific, not come for the USN. I see the claims about what investigations did what have been deleted, like all the other claims, once the documents are produced the claims have to be deleted. Deleted text, "Try again, the Congressional investigation found against Kimmel. The navy investigation found for him. By the way investigations are about deciding charges, trials are for defending charges." 1) Roberts Commission, 1941/42 found against Kimmel and Short 2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting 3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow. 4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel. 5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the contributors to the defeat list.) 6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access, no report published. 7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents being destroyed, found this not to be the case. 8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty. In in Nr.4 of this list he was allowed to defend himself,Court exhonorated him,BUT findings were kept secret.period. This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated? Deleted text, "Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen." On claims the inquiries were rigged, "I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair." On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source, "I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later? Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage. Alternatively Hollywood movies said " aid to be fiction can be taken as the truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt. John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches of the US military? "It sums up the "evidence" quite well when a Hollywood entertainment product is the source of truth." Dont underestimate Holywood,Its nations premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization. This is good, presumably the "Pearl Harbor" movie talk of code breaking is therefore psyops and needs to be ignored. Then again given the movie is the advanced "proof" of code breaking maybe not. Hollywood promotes US disinformation, except when the claim is liked, then it is the truth, spoken by a fictional character in a movie claimed to be fictional is no barrier. Just ignore the actual history. For more info check out: "Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders. On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up. The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies, and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich at your expense. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. |
#103
|
|||
|
|||
For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders. On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up. The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies, and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich at your expense. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to find the truths. It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or 2004?. Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman . There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the secret sign and so on. I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change. This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated? I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958: "My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would put the US in the war with the full support of American Public" Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !. |
#104
|
|||
|
|||
"Denyav" wrote in message ... In which alternate reality 1)Ft.Sumter 2)USS Maine 3)Pearl Harbor 4)9/11 This kind of operations should be a thing of the past,but you can not prevent the recurrence of such events by covering them up. Relisting them does not equal proving them. but feel to relist them a few more times. |
#105
|
|||
|
|||
Denyav twisted the electrons to say:
2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the nation not enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic politics) A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements = The Pearl Harbor trap So, if we where to accept your premise that the White House knew not only that the Japanese where coming but also the day they would be "arriving", why not warn Pearl Harbour? After all, if you're planning on joining a war it's generally considered an advantage not to lose large amounts of men and equipment on day 1! No need to sortie the fleet if you still want a "sneak attack", just get them placed on alert - ie: all anti-aircraft guns manned and ready and a decent CAP (with the rest of the fighters on +5/+15) overhead. -- These opinions might not even be mine ... Let alone connected with my employer ... |
#106
|
|||
|
|||
1)Ft.Sumter
2)USS Maine 3)Pearl Harbor 4)9/11 Relisting them does not equal proving them. but feel to relist them a few more times. It establishes the existence of a pattern or govenment culture. Its always easier to get an Arson suspect with prior Arson convictions convicted than an Arson suspect without any prior convictions. |
#107
|
|||
|
|||
So, if we where to accept your premise that the White House knew not only
that the Japanese where coming but also the day they would be "arriving", why not warn Pearl Harbour? Good Question,but I think Kimmel gave a very clear answer to this question during interview in 1958. After all, if you're planning on joining a war it's generally considered an advantage not to lose large amounts of men and equipment on day 1! Amounts of men and equipment lost in Pearl Harbor is very insignificant in comparison with manpower and production resources of US,as the later developments in war proved. No need to sortie the fleet if you still want a "sneak attack", just get them placed on alert - ie: all anti-aircraft guns manned and ready and a decent CAP (with the rest of the fighters on +5/+15) overhead. Pearl Harbors shortcomings were well known,in fact during pre-attack meetings Kimmel always maintained that only viable defense would be the keeping the fleet in open sea and his views shared by everybody. |
#109
|
|||
|
|||
From: (Denyav)
snip It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or 2004?. Oh, now I understand. You repeat the same thing many times and it becomes fact. How stupid of me to not notice sooner. I didn't realize Lincoln had caused the 30 or 40 years of build up to the secession and the told The Confederates they should shoot first and Sumter was a nice target. http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/FinalO...rder_intro.htm Wow, I think you are right. The Navy blew up their own boat in Havana Harbour in 1898 because the Spanish wouldn't cooperate and do it for them. http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq71-1.htm I guess this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the Kimmel's interviews were the truth. [editor's note: this is getting deep] It would never occur to me that Kimmel was trying to simply improve his image in the history books. Amazing how the trend you present proves beyond any question Bush talked Clinton into not collecting Bin Ladin when he had a chance so tha Bush could have his war. [editor's note: forget saving your shoes, save your watch] Now, denyev, you have proved your point [editor's note: the shovel broke] when and where will the next trumped up attack occur? Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
#110
|
|||
|
|||
"Denyav" wrote in message ... Or the fact that it would have no real world impact and would be seen as being nice to the next of kin made it seem reasonable. "Courtesy" laws are usually rubber stamped by presidents,not refused for forever. Unless of course the President sees that awarding such a "courtesy" would have wider implications and encourage conspirowhackos like yourself. The problem you run into is that I have no stake at all in the Pearl Harbour issue. I just like poking fun at mad people. "Standardized Minds" could not even qualify as "mad people". Poor Denyav, no proof, no hope and no sanity. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Videos: Su-37 Superflanker vs F-22 Raptor | Alejandro Magno | Military Aviation | 20 | January 10th 04 05:19 PM |