ELT EPIRB

BTIZ wrote:
I usually use my floppy hat. We don't use a
launch marshall, but it sounds like your site uses a separate signal
person from the wing runner. Larger mirrors might help. You don't say
what limitations you're facing that prevents the tow pilot from seeing
the wing runner. Personally, if a wing runner can't perform the
hookup, the lookout, signal, and run the wing, I'd find someone else or
launch unassisted.


I agree, a person who cannot hook up, cannot run a wing, and does not know
the standard SSA signals, should not be left unassisted to launch a glider.

BT

Just a topical reminder, there's wing runner online training on the SSF
website
http://www.soaringsafety.org/school/wingrunner/toc.htm

Frank

Actually, it is a mirror problem. I think we have
it worked out, but I just wanted to hear what others
might be doing.

I dislike the 'Go,go,go;' and 'Stop, stop, stop.'
We have several airports around us using the same frequency
and this kind of communication is too cluttered.

At 05:18 21 September 2006, Frank Whiteley wrote:

Nyal Williams wrote:
Our club has always used the standard hand signals
to let the tow pilot know the rope is taut and the
tow can begin.

We are considering short-handed operations in the
early
hours of the day and will have just a wing runner.
Is there a standardized phrase or a recommended best
phrase to radio the tow pilot to begin the launch?
We need something that is specific for the tow pilot,
short, unambiguous, and easily understood.

Please don't say 'Go, Go, Go!' It violates almost
all the requirements.
Give the wing runner a signal paddle (like a large
ping-pong paddle) to
signal the tow plane. I usually use my floppy hat.
We don't use a
launch marshall, but it sounds like your site uses
a separate signal
person from the wing runner. Larger mirrors might
help. You don't say
what limitations you're facing that prevents the tow
pilot from seeing
the wing runner. Personally, if a wing runner can't
perform the
hookup, the lookout, signal, and run the wing, I'd
find someone else or
launch unassisted.

We've settled on three audio signals for winch launching
on the radio,
each spoken three times. Up slack, go, and stop.
Just who is giving
the radio signals? If there's no wing runner, but
I don't think we've
settled on signals other than communicating with the
tow pilot by
closing the canopy and giving a rudder wag.

In the UK we called 'all out' three times instead of
'go' on the winch.
If the problem is really an audio issue, buy some
nice noise canceling
headsets.

Frank Whiteley

Nyal Williams wrote:
Our club has always used the standard hand signals
to let the tow pilot know the rope is taut and the
tow can begin.

We are considering short-handed operations in the early
hours of the day and will have just a wing runner.
Is there a standardized phrase or a recommended best
phrase to radio the tow pilot to begin the launch?
We need something that is specific for the tow pilot,
short, unambiguous, and easily understood.

Please don't say 'Go, Go, Go!' It violates almost
all the requirements.

We use: "Towplane X, Glider Y ready for takeoff (with/without water
ballast)"

Frank Whiteley wrote:
BTIZ wrote:
I usually use my floppy hat. We don't use a
launch marshall, but it sounds like your site uses a separate signal
person from the wing runner. Larger mirrors might help. You don't say
what limitations you're facing that prevents the tow pilot from seeing
the wing runner. Personally, if a wing runner can't perform the
hookup, the lookout, signal, and run the wing, I'd find someone else or
launch unassisted.

I agree, a person who cannot hook up, cannot run a wing, and does not know
the standard SSA signals, should not be left unassisted to launch a glider.

BT

Just a topical reminder, there's wing runner online training on the SSF
website
http://www.soaringsafety.org/school/wingrunner/toc.htm

Frank

We use two commands if we're aero towing with radios. "Take Up slack" to
start the tug moving and "All Out" when the rope comes tight. Both are
preceeded by the tug's call sign.

We normally use radio for the winch. Three commands are used: "Take Up
Slack" repeated until the cable is tight, then "All out" repeated until
the glider is visible to the winch driver. "Stop" repeated three times
is the emergency stop signal. I think the three syllables, two syllables
and single syllable distinction is important: it helps to cut through
wind noise, especially if the launch marshal is short handed, holding
the wing and so is without a spare hand to shield the mic.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

In message .com,
writes

Why do the (USA) present rules re ELT's stipulate that they have to be
mounted and meet FAA specifications, and that personal ones do not meet
the rules?

If you bale out, you might be a long way from the glider wreckage and
remain undiscovered if rescuers only have a fix on the glider wreckage.
Most survivable accidents, bale out or still in cockpit, have the
pilot still able to push a button and could use a personal ELT. That
seems to be the thinking of several UK piots who have or are thinking
about ELT's. I looked at the installation/certification details of a
fixed one (no approved scheme for it in the UK) and it looks difficult
to the point of being impractical.

Some ELT's available in the UK can be worn about one's person which
solves the problem of the pilot landing some distance from the glider.
Also, if I personally was off to fly XC I would put my (charged) mobile
phone in a pocket. There isn't reception everywhere in some (hilly)
parts of the UK, and it might pay to take more than one phone (on more
than one provider), but it's a partial solution.

I'd also like to point out that a fix on the glider wreckage is better
than no fix at all.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

Nyal Williams wrote:
We are considering short-handed operations in the early
hours of the day and will have just a wing runner.
Is there a standardized phrase or a recommended best
phrase to radio the tow pilot to begin the launch?
We need something that is specific for the tow pilot,
short, unambiguous, and easily understood.

The winch site here uses "Full Power, Full Power" on the field telephone
to the winch.

The other phrases are "Take up slack, take up slack" and "Stop, stop,
stop, stop!"

There's also "Would you like a break?" We don't need to say that twice!

Please don't say 'Go, Go, Go!' It violates almost
all the requirements.

Ours might too but it works for us.

GC

True enough, but this ignores that the 121.5 / 243 Mhz units are scheduled
to go to a "no response" status from the COPAS / SARSAT in less than 3
years - - replaced by 406 Mhz units.

Of course the 121.5 Mhz signal will still be useful for search and rescue to
home in on - - if they get notified somehow.

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
wrote:

If you bale out, you might be a long way from the glider wreckage and
remain undiscovered if rescuers only have a fix on the glider wreckage.


With respect to the 121.5 and 243 MHz units, the signal
can't be localized all that well. My conclusion was that
the search area for an ELT at the pilot and the search area
for an ELT at the plane are going to be indistinguishable in
almost all cases. If I'm far from the plane, then I've
parachuted out, and at least the deployed chute will help me
be spotted. I then considered that the mounted ELT carries
a much heavier battery supply and a better antenna, so it
could be heard and tracked more easily. Finally, I
considered the fact that I had to be conscious to activate
the personal, whereas the mounted unit was self activated in
the crash.

My conclusion was to go with the mounted ELT. It was harder
to install, but seemed much more likely to be useful.

--
T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

In message , T o d d P a t t
i s t writes
"bumper" wrote:

True enough, but this ignores that the 121.5 / 243 Mhz units are scheduled
to go to a "no response" status from the COPAS / SARSAT in less than 3
years - - replaced by 406 Mhz units.

That's why I limited my comments to the 121.5/243 units,
which were the only ones available when I made my choice.
The 406 units can be localized better, although I still
doubt that the pilot is likely to be very far outside that
area.

Of course the 121.5 Mhz signal will still be useful for search and rescue to
home in on - - if they get notified somehow.

There's no doubt that the 406 is a better option. More
expensive, but the price will fall. As to the personal vs.
mounted issue, I still think mounted is better, but the
question is a bit closer.



The following is worth reading. A GPS-equipped 406 MHz ELT is said to
be accurate to less than 100 yards, without to 1-3 nm. Elsewhere on the
site it mentions that processing of 121.5 MHz & 243 MHz beacons are
ceasing on 1st Feb 2009. If I was buying that would push me towards a
406 MHz ELT.

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121....20elt%20121.5%
20406%20comparison%22

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

The "non-mounted" 406 / GPS units (ACR Aquafix, Terrafix, Aerofix) can be
had for $500 after rebate. Useful for other activities too and fits on
parachute harness. Yup, you gotta be conscious to push the buttons.

The built in, G-force activated 406 ELTs remain pricey, even without built
in GPS, though prices will come down I'm sure.

The track record for G-force activated ELTs has not been great. Lots of
false activations and many actual accidents where the ELT has failed to go
off.

For now, I'm flying with my ACR Aquafix and holding off changing out the 121
ELT in my power aircraft until I'm forced to do so or until the prices get
reasonable. If I needed a fixed ELT, there's no way I'd buy a 121.5 now.

http://www.theepirbstore.com/ was good to deal with and offered the best
prices when I purchased mine. I'd call them land-line though, and ask if
they are still offering pilot discounts (the phone price was even lower than
their advertised price a year ago).

bumper


"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
Surfer! wrote:

The following is worth reading. A GPS-equipped 406 MHz ELT is said to
be accurate to less than 100 yards, without to 1-3 nm. Elsewhere on the
site it mentions that processing of 121.5 MHz & 243 MHz beacons are
ceasing on 1st Feb 2009. If I was buying that would push me towards a
406 MHz ELT.

I have yet to talk to anyone who has purchased the GPS
equipped version of a 406 MHz ELT. How much are they? If
the non-GPS version is only 1-3 nm accurate I'd go for the
mounted non-GPS 406 unit over a personal non-GPS due to the
1) better antenna 2) higher capacity battery and 3) impact
activation. If I was buying the GPS version, the question
is closer, but I'd still lean towards the mounted version.




http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121....20elt%20121.5%
20406%20comparison%22

--
T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

EPIRB's are cool and I'd like to have one. However, I'm also thinking that
there might be an alternative worth considering. In that EPIRB's require
the pilot to activate them after landing (crashing), could a satellite phone
do the same thing for the same cost while offering greater flexibility? A
satellite phone and GPS could alert the retrieve crew to an exact location
and condition of the pilot. Together they could decide whether it is
appropriate to call out the official rescue troops. In these situations,
$1.50 - 1.75 a minute to contact the crew seems cheap.

Satellite phones cost about the same as EPIRB's and can be used for other
critical communications needs. No pre-paid package of minutes need be
bought with the phone if it is intended for emergency use. AFAIK, there are
no FCC regulatory issues using a sat phone from an aircraft so the crew
could be alerted BEFORE the landing.

Howard Banks story in Soaring relating his outlanding adventure in the New
Mexico desert suggests that communication is the biggest problem.

Bill Daniels


"bumper" wrote in message
...
The "non-mounted" 406 / GPS units (ACR Aquafix, Terrafix, Aerofix) can be
had for $500 after rebate. Useful for other activities too and fits on
parachute harness. Yup, you gotta be conscious to push the buttons.

The built in, G-force activated 406 ELTs remain pricey, even without built
in GPS, though prices will come down I'm sure.

The track record for G-force activated ELTs has not been great. Lots of
false activations and many actual accidents where the ELT has failed to go
off.

For now, I'm flying with my ACR Aquafix and holding off changing out the
121 ELT in my power aircraft until I'm forced to do so or until the prices
get reasonable. If I needed a fixed ELT, there's no way I'd buy a 121.5
now.

http://www.theepirbstore.com/ was good to deal with and offered the best
prices when I purchased mine. I'd call them land-line though, and ask if
they are still offering pilot discounts (the phone price was even lower
than their advertised price a year ago).

bumper


"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
Surfer! wrote:

The following is worth reading. A GPS-equipped 406 MHz ELT is said to
be accurate to less than 100 yards, without to 1-3 nm. Elsewhere on the
site it mentions that processing of 121.5 MHz & 243 MHz beacons are
ceasing on 1st Feb 2009. If I was buying that would push me towards a
406 MHz ELT.

I have yet to talk to anyone who has purchased the GPS
equipped version of a 406 MHz ELT. How much are they? If
the non-GPS version is only 1-3 nm accurate I'd go for the
mounted non-GPS 406 unit over a personal non-GPS due to the
1) better antenna 2) higher capacity battery and 3) impact
activation. If I was buying the GPS version, the question
is closer, but I'd still lean towards the mounted version.




http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121....20elt%20121.5%
20406%20comparison%22

--
T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)