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#11
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:22:08 GMT, "The original Russ."
wrote: Hi Russ, As a journalist, I can say this with hand on heart: When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol. When the other arseholes stop buying what we write *g* Ken __________________________________________________ ____________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com The Worlds Uncensored News Source |
#12
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Err, Huh ?
"Ken Hughes" wrote in message ... On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:22:08 GMT, "The original Russ." wrote: Hi Russ, As a journalist, I can say this with hand on heart: When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol. When the other arseholes stop buying what we write *g* Ken __________________________________________________ ____________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com The Worlds Uncensored News Source |
#13
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Hi DW,
Well, as DCAO3 pointed out, one(more skilled than me) could probably hit a building or two no doubt, so I guess it has to be considered a valid point of view. The more my thick mind comes to appreciate about real-life pilots, be it on big, small, medium, new, old, ancient, experimental....a/c, the more I would also say that it's perhaps one of the highest goals one could aspire to, whether for commercial, personal, technical, intellectual, ideological... reasons. I still hope and pray that none of those *******s try in vain to home in on my 2 Twin Peaks (i,e. my 2 Geraniums in the garden), because I'd be mighty ****ed off if they caused any damage! ). Not to mention my insurance premium increase, because the neighbours might sue me for something....and the Judges might, in their wisdom, award damages ("intellectually based", because none of us are capable of thinking on the same plane as them, surely!, and the planes didn't demolish THEIR Geraniums, so it's not personal).... End of rant, and what was the question?.. No, no, End of Question, and what was the Rant?.. No, no end Yoh Bro, I feel better now, Although, re Martin's poetry, I don't know how... You're right, as usual, ranting can be fun :-)) Regards, John "Derek Wildstar" wrote in message news:UW%Ta.140026$H17.49307@sccrnsc02... "John Ward" wrote in message u... Hi Derek, Come on mate, don't hold back so much, spit it out, say what you really mean! :-)) Regards, John Pilots train for years and years to operate the most demanding pieces of equipment in the most extreme of conditions, to think that a person can become intimate with an aircraft in front of a PC, and to do so for montrous purpose ignores logic and decency. Flight and flight simming is, to me, more noble than that authors ill-considered dismissiveness. Hey, ranting is fun! |
#14
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[Warning: Quotes rearranged]
* Dan Husk : "Dave Pearson" wrote in message .. . URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_np.html And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be a regular feature from now on? sigh Dave, You think all us "Flight-Simmers" are on a potential terroist list somewhere? Nothing more dangerous than a redneck with a renegade 777 !!! ;-)) HeHe. Seriously though, no, I doubt we're all on a list somewhere (ok, we probably all are on *some* list *somewhere*). What interested me is that, getting on for two years ago we were due a new release of MSFS and then certain events happened. There was much (in the UK at least) media speculation about the connection between the New York and Washington attacks and commodity flight simulation. The speculation generally appearing to be baseless (in the UK at least if you can blame something on computers, the internet and/or geeks then you're onto a winning story). What I found interesting is that, coincidently(?), here we are getting ready for a new release of MSFS and such a story crops up again. Is someone desperate for a story? -- Dave Pearson http://www.davep.org/ |
#15
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[re-arranged quoting]
John Ward ) wrote: "Ken Hughes" wrote in message ... On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:22:08 GMT, "The original Russ." wrote: Hi Russ, As a journalist, I can say this with hand on heart: When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol. When the other arseholes stop buying what we write *g* Err, Huh ? It is a well-known fact that sensationalism sells papers and draws viewers to the evening news. More subscribers/views equals more ad revenue. Ken is stating that the minute people stop buying/watching, these journalists will stop sensationalizing. It is quite clear to me that the sim article linked in this thread was written for little other reason than sensationalism. But then again, how large is the daily readership of Salon.com? -- Peter |
#16
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Dave Pearson wrote: URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_np.html And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be a regular feature from now on? sigh Hopefully not. I believe 'Josh' has been watching far too many nostalgic re-runs of Bro' Serling's "Twilight Zone" coupled with, dare I say it, and per his piece, a bit more 'Gordon's' than that of the accompanying tonic chaser. Let's just say that the piece could be equated with that rather poor paste gig of Osama sticking out the right seat window! Doc Tony |
#17
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:29:27 +1000, "John Ward"
wrote: Hi DW, Well, as DCAO3 pointed out, one(more skilled than me) could probably hit a building or two no doubt, so I guess it has to be considered a valid point of view. The more my thick mind comes to appreciate about real-life pilots, be it on big, small, medium, new, old, ancient, experimental....a/c, the more I would also say that it's perhaps one of the highest goals one could aspire to, whether for commercial, personal, technical, intellectual, ideological... reasons. And... a profuse thank you. :-)) But it's not really all that difficult. It does take a bit of work, dedication to practice, and a bit of money, but most students that hang with it are able to get their pilot certificates. The flying around is the least difficult part. If you aren't worried about holding heading and altitude closely, nor concerned about airspeed other than staying fast enough it gets even simpler. I regularly take kids for rides and after leveling off let them take the controls. (I fly a high performance, complex, retract, single engine with a cruise a tad under 200 MPH). Normally even 10 year olds are able to hold altitude and course after a few minutes of coaching. A few more minutes and they can do shallow turns. The surprising thing with the kids is they do better than many experienced pilots who fly the smaller Pipers and Cessnas. They haven't had a chance to learn any bad habits and they don't have a 120 MPH mind in a 200 MPH airplane. The responses of the Deb are far quicker than most trainers in the General Aviation fleet. Due to that many of the Piper and Cessna pilots will end up in a PIO in less than a minute at the controls. One pilot who has spent a lot of time in Cessna 172s told me as we were doing 2 Gs out of the bottom and zeroooo over the top..."I know what it's doing, but by the time I correct, it just seems to make it worse." That's kinda like the old, "It hurts when I do this", well if it makes it worse, what's the cure? Quite doing that. He did and the Deb went happily along and quite trying to make me sick in my own airplane. Each year our EAA chapter holds a couple of ground schools for kids about 10 through 17. After a week at camp (a mixture of learning about aviation and ground school), they do the flight plans and we go out and fly them. Once the kids realize what to do as far as holding altitude and course (and that they can't do anything I can't undo)they do right well on navigating using VFR. We fly a triangular course about 30 miles on a leg with an airport at each corner. They some times take a little prompting as to what they should look for (land marks), but for many this may be only the second or third time they've even gone for a ride. NO, they don't do stalls, steep turns, landings or take offs, but neither did those involved in 9/11. As I said, Flying the things is the easy part. This is what I've had the kids flying. http://www.rogerhalstead.com/833pics.htm If you want to see airplanes, the big fly-in at Oshkosh Wisconsin starts this coming week. There will most likely be something like 10,000 to 14,000 aircraft of all makes, models, and ages as well as air shows that last most of the afternoons. and there will be military demonstrations as well as static displays. If you go to my home page and follow the table of contents you will find a number of photos including a pair of F-104s in formation. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) I still hope and pray that none of those *******s try in vain to home in on my 2 Twin Peaks (i,e. my 2 Geraniums in the garden), because I'd be mighty ****ed off if they caused any damage! ). Not to mention my insurance premium increase, because the neighbours might sue me for something....and the Judges might, in their wisdom, award damages ("intellectually based", because none of us are capable of thinking on the same plane as them, surely!, and the planes didn't demolish THEIR Geraniums, so it's not personal).... End of rant, and what was the question?.. No, no, End of Question, and what was the Rant?.. No, no end Yoh Bro, I feel better now, Although, re Martin's poetry, I don't know how... You're right, as usual, ranting can be fun :-)) Regards, John "Derek Wildstar" wrote in message news:UW%Ta.140026$H17.49307@sccrnsc02... "John Ward" wrote in message u... Hi Derek, Come on mate, don't hold back so much, spit it out, say what you really mean! :-)) Regards, John Pilots train for years and years to operate the most demanding pieces of equipment in the most extreme of conditions, to think that a person can become intimate with an aircraft in front of a PC, and to do so for montrous purpose ignores logic and decency. Flight and flight simming is, to me, more noble than that authors ill-considered dismissiveness. Hey, ranting is fun! |
#18
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Chris,
Yet again I will have to agree with you about the PSS realism. I know it's not all there but it does allow you to experience a large amount of the procedures. Having sat in on a couple of the training sessions that you refer to with a RL pilot it certainly reinforces that view. It also looks like the real thing as far as I can seen from photos of actual aircraft. With regard to real pilots taking a long to gain high levels of competence that is true. However I guess they spend most of their time learning what to do when things go wrong. You don't really need that part of the training if you are a terrorist. From a terrorist perspective they let the real pilot do all the difficult stuff at the airport and takeoff, then try and take control. Once airborne, plenty of power and the EADI the right way up and it will most likely stay in the air. Even from my simming experience the difficult part of flying a jet seems to be making things happen against a set of rules (SID/STAR/Route plan) altitude, speed, direction, glideslope etc. I don't imagine any of that is important if the aim is to crash into a large object. One final thought. I have been using this software for about nine months and to get to my current competence (I generally end up where I want to be without crashing, having almost followed the rules) it has required a huge amount of time, and help from more experienced people like BCA03. I am not sure that joining a simming community would be high on the terrorists list of things to do, but who knows. Regards Geoff "BCA03" wrote in message ... "The original Russ." wrote in message ... ROFL! Goodness me. I've been lucky enough over the years to have spent time in the jump seat on a few commercial flights during takeoffs and landings. I can honesty say that anyone without proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a building!!! When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol. Cheers, Russ. Oh I dont know Russ. If we are speaking about the kind of terrorist atrocities carried out on 9/11, all they had to be able to do was some basic navigation and control the speed and altitude of the craft. If they knew how to use the A/P and programme the FMC it wouldnt have been too hard to get to the Towers. And remember, we are speaking about two of the tallest buildings around at the time, not some backyard outhouse. If we are speaking about a Simmer jumping into the LH seat and being able to take off, or control the thing in the air, then I agree that most would be lost. However there are simmers who take it that stage further. The one time I got up front for a landing, I wouldnt say I was particularly knowldgable, but I did know what all the main bits were and how they worked. Since that time I have learned a hell of a lot more, to the point that now I could sit in the thingypit of a 747 and pretty much know what everything did. It helps that I have had a couple of lessons from a RL 747 pilot of course, but even he is impressed at just how well the PSS 747 resembles the real thing. I would also feel comfortable in the 737-400 series, and soon probably the NG700's, and there are probably lots of simmers who know a lot more than I do. To say that FS2xxx can be used to help terrorists with nefarious intentions is probably true. To suggest that there are armies of them out there using it for some long term doomsday scenario would probably be false, at least I hope it is ;-) The VA that I fly for has 3 or 4 RL pilots (Jets not Props), and to a man they all agree that flying Jets in FS can be harder than the real thing. Whether its because FS doesnt have the feel that sitting in a moving object does, or the lack of peripheral vision, or even the fact that a lot of the Jets in FS are difficult to trim for straight and level is neither here nor there, but if I can follow a 10DME Arc in FS, or make a 7DME tear drop approach and line up perfect, or even land on two engines in the PSS747 with a stiff crosswind in FS, then I would have more idea in the real thing than most passengers. I agree that it is a tired old story, but I dont agree that "anyone without proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a building" Now, if you had said "most people" instead of "anyone", we would be in agreement g Rgds, Chris J Dave Pearson wrote in message .. . URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...rrorism/index_ np.html And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be a regular feature from now on? sigh -- Dave Pearson http://www.davep.org/ |
#19
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"Handsome" wrote in message ... "Dave Pearson" wrote in message .. . | URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...rrorism/index_ np.html | And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be a | regular feature from now on? sigh | | -- | Dave Pearson | http://www.davep.org/ Here's something I found surprising from RC Simulations (Bristol) Terms and Conditions for booking their flight sim. 4) Following the events of September 11th and subsequent threat of terrorist attacks, any form of suspicious behaviour will be noted. Authorities will be informed and the session will be terminated immediately without refund at our discretion. All users of our facilities must produce photographic identification upon arrival to prove your indentity and address. Hello Martin, I laughed when I read that too, wondering if Bob was saying it to make out his Simulator is close to a 'real' simulator. Then I wondered just how often the average Joe got anywhere near a terrorist and hadn't realised it. For me it is two or three times possibly, so maybe Bob has something, or maybe he says it to *pacify* people like the author of the piece that started this thread. And/or for all those people whose glass is always half empty and never half full. That RC Simulator doesn't look too bad actually.To whit, a few of us from the VA have been thinking about spending a day there or so. Certainly the rates seem reasonable, and if we do give it a whirl, I will file a debrief to this very group. Rgds, Chris J |
#20
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Hi and thanks Geoff.
I mentioned a similar story that appeared in the Sun some time ago, and at least one person here pooh poohed the idea ( of the story appearing in the Sun, not the idea of terrorists using FS for their own twisted ends ) so I was mildly pleased that the story had appeared again, albeit in a different guise. The premise was much the same though. Personally my own comment to this author would be to accuse him of " statin' the bleedin' obvious " ( with apologies to the Python gang ) Lets take it a step further. I wonder how many Train company owner/managers had to change their underwear when they heard that Microsoft were bringing out a Train simulator. Do you suppose they fired off memo's to their drivers warning them to keep their doors locked at all times just in case. It's a silly idea of course, but what if it ever happens ? The same questions would arise again, and hacks the World over will use it to fill a few column inches when they cant be arsed to go out and do some real journalism. I think the fact is that 9/11 would have happened whether or not FS had been written. The only people who know if it played any part are probably dead now, so the rest of us can never know, and we shouldn't really be worried too much by it. Rgds, Chris J "GeoffC" wrote in message ... Chris, Yet again I will have to agree with you about the PSS realism. I know it's not all there but it does allow you to experience a large amount of the procedures. Having sat in on a couple of the training sessions that you refer to with a RL pilot it certainly reinforces that view. It also looks like the real thing as far as I can seen from photos of actual aircraft. With regard to real pilots taking a long to gain high levels of competence that is true. However I guess they spend most of their time learning what to do when things go wrong. You don't really need that part of the training if you are a terrorist. From a terrorist perspective they let the real pilot do all the difficult stuff at the airport and takeoff, then try and take control. Once airborne, plenty of power and the EADI the right way up and it will most likely stay in the air. Even from my simming experience the difficult part of flying a jet seems to be making things happen against a set of rules (SID/STAR/Route plan) altitude, speed, direction, glideslope etc. I don't imagine any of that is important if the aim is to crash into a large object. One final thought. I have been using this software for about nine months and to get to my current competence (I generally end up where I want to be without crashing, having almost followed the rules) it has required a huge amount of time, and help from more experienced people like BCA03. I am not sure that joining a simming community would be high on the terrorists list of things to do, but who knows. Regards Geoff "BCA03" wrote in message ... "The original Russ." wrote in message ... ROFL! Goodness me. I've been lucky enough over the years to have spent time in the jump seat on a few commercial flights during takeoffs and landings. I can honesty say that anyone without proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a building!!! When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol. Cheers, Russ. Oh I dont know Russ. If we are speaking about the kind of terrorist atrocities carried out on 9/11, all they had to be able to do was some basic navigation and control the speed and altitude of the craft. If they knew how to use the A/P and programme the FMC it wouldnt have been too hard to get to the Towers. And remember, we are speaking about two of the tallest buildings around at the time, not some backyard outhouse. If we are speaking about a Simmer jumping into the LH seat and being able to take off, or control the thing in the air, then I agree that most would be lost. However there are simmers who take it that stage further. The one time I got up front for a landing, I wouldnt say I was particularly knowldgable, but I did know what all the main bits were and how they worked. Since that time I have learned a hell of a lot more, to the point that now I could sit in the thingypit of a 747 and pretty much know what everything did. It helps that I have had a couple of lessons from a RL 747 pilot of course, but even he is impressed at just how well the PSS 747 resembles the real thing. I would also feel comfortable in the 737-400 series, and soon probably the NG700's, and there are probably lots of simmers who know a lot more than I do. To say that FS2xxx can be used to help terrorists with nefarious intentions is probably true. To suggest that there are armies of them out there using it for some long term doomsday scenario would probably be false, at least I hope it is ;-) The VA that I fly for has 3 or 4 RL pilots (Jets not Props), and to a man they all agree that flying Jets in FS can be harder than the real thing. Whether its because FS doesnt have the feel that sitting in a moving object does, or the lack of peripheral vision, or even the fact that a lot of the Jets in FS are difficult to trim for straight and level is neither here nor there, but if I can follow a 10DME Arc in FS, or make a 7DME tear drop approach and line up perfect, or even land on two engines in the PSS747 with a stiff crosswind in FS, then I would have more idea in the real thing than most passengers. I agree that it is a tired old story, but I dont agree that "anyone without proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a building" Now, if you had said "most people" instead of "anyone", we would be in agreement g Rgds, Chris J Dave Pearson wrote in message .. . URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...rrorism/index_ np.html And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be a regular feature from now on? sigh -- Dave Pearson http://www.davep.org/ |
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