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Aviation Conspiracy: Toronto Plane Pilot Was Allowed To Land In "Red Alert" Weather



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 8th 05, 12:38 AM
Bill Mulcahy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Aviation Conspiracy: Toronto Plane Pilot Was Allowed To Land In "Red Alert" Weather

You can read the online edition of this newsletter at:
http://pages.prodigy.net/rockaway/newsletter336.htm

Quote of the Week: "that's the pilot's decision." Brian Lackey, vice
president of operations for the Greater Toronto Airport Authority, where a
plane carrying 309 people crashed, commenting on how the pilot decided to
land at Toronto's Pearson Airport during a violent "red alert" storm

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Aviation Conspiracy Newsletter
#336.............................................. .........................................August
7, 2005 Past newsletters can be accessed at:
http://pages.prodigy.net/rockaway/ACNewsmenu.htm The PASSUR airport flight
tracking system at http://www.passur.com/sites.htm (you must have Java
installed to view it) Bill Mulcahy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Toronto Plane Pilot Was Allowed To Land In "Red Alert" Weather

---------------------------------------------------------------------
As Bill Sees It: (Editorial) Toronto Crash Investigation To Ignore Weather
Problems And Blame The Pilot? Some Canadian news stories are starting to
hint that the Canadian government is going to blame the Toronto's Pearson's
Airport crash on "pilot error." It seems more and more governments are
copying the way the FAA always blames pilots first when a plane crashes in a
violent storm. If they blamed this crash, which occurred during a violent
storm, on weather conditions, then the government would have to take the
blame, and liability, for allowing the plane to land. They are not about to
do that. What the Toronto Airport operators did was declare a violent storm
weather "red alert" and then left it up to the PILOT to make the decision
whether or not to land!!! I don't understand why pilots are allowed to make
a life or death decision like this when they don't have the extensive
weather information that people at the airport have. Fortunately, no one was
killed this time. If the Canadian government continues to allow planes to
land in violent "red alert" whether, next time they might not be so lucky.
They will probably do what the FAA does after a accident like this; they
will tighten up the safety rules for a while, until public and media
attention dies down, and then slowly start pushing the safety envelope
again.

General Aviation To Be Permanently Restricted From Washington, DC? While of
course I am for ANY restriction on aviation...anywhere, I find it suspicious
that the FAA wants to ban small general aviation aircraft coming even miles
from Washington, DC while allowing the nearby "Reagan" National Airport to
operate less than a mile from the Pentagon and about two miles from the
National Mall, the White House and the Capitol Building!!! Why not close
Reagan National permanently? It was done for months after 9/11. The reason,
as everyone knows, is because Reagan National Airport is used by congressmen
and senators as their own private airport; so they are not about to close
it. The danger from this airport is not only from terrorists but could come
from just an ordinary airplane accident. On January 12, 1981 a plane with 79
took off in a snowstorm (nice going boys) and crashed in the Potomac River,
killing 74.

Lawsuit filed in Pearson airport crash: A passenger from the Air France
flight that crashed in Toronto last Tuesday has filed a $75-million
class-action lawsuit.The lawsuit names Suzanne Deak of Toronto as the lone
plaintiff, but the list of claimants is expected to grow.The suit was filed
on behalf of all 297 passengers who escaped the plane that skidded off a
Pearson Airport runway before bursting into flames. The suit claims Air
France, the Greater Toronto Airports Authority and Nav Canada were negligent
in the landing of the plane. Paul Miller, the lawyer for the plaintiff, said
his client is struggling to cope with minor back and neck injuries, along
with psychological problems. The crash landing injured 43 of the 309 people
on board Flight 358 from Paris, but nobody died in the accident.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...60727-sun.html
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...uit050806.html

FAA To PERMANENTLY Ban General Aviation Flights Over Washington, DC?
WASHINGTON -- The government wants permanently to restrict a wide swath of
airspace over the Washington area and make it a crime if a private pilot
knowingly enters a zone that extends from Maryland to Virginia. Pilots have
strayed hundreds of times since the government temporarily restricted
airspace over the capital just before the start of the Iraq war in 2003. In
many cases, fighter jets, which are prepared to shoot down a plane, have
escorted an errant plane to an airport. The FAA, in a notice to be published
on Thursday, said the restrictions are necessary because of the continuing
threat of terrorism. The agency said there is no information suggesting that
terrorists have an imminent plan to use airplanes to attack the U.S.
capital. The current restrictions went into effect in February 2003, when
the FAA expanded the zone over Washington before the war in Iraq. Similar
limits were imposed after the Sept. 11 attacks. The restricted airspace
includes an outer ring that has a radius of about 30 miles to 45 miles and
an altitude of 18,000 feet. The zone extends east beyond Baltimore, west
beyond Dulles International Airport in Virginia, north to Gaithersburg, Md.,
and about 30 miles south of Washington.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080301798.html

Florida: The FAA Fights County Over Noisy Runway Use: Broward County
officials have renewed their efforts to convince the Federal Aviation
Administration to stop using one of the runways at Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood
International Airport to reduce flight delays. The latest round of bickering
about the disputed runway started Wednesday after the FAA used the runway
for eight flights between 10:06 and 10:23 a.m. The county says using the
runway, which cuts across a diagonal northwest to southeast, violates an
agreement aimed at protecting residents at either end of the airstrip from
noise. The county wants the diagonal runway used only when the main runway
is rendered unusable by crosswinds, repairs or an emergency. But the FAA
says it needs to employ all options to keep planes operating on time. In
March, Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood's delays ranked as the worst among the
nation's top 35 airports, said FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen. The FAA
started using the diagonal runway to relieve congestion in June. After the
flurry of activity Wednesday, Broward Aviation Department director Tom
Jargiello sent the FAA a letter asking it to ''cease and desist'' using the
runway beyond the already-prescribed conditions. Editor's Note: Once Again
the FAA shows they are more interested in airline timetables than people's
health and quality of life. "Letters" to the FAA do no good, you must SUE
the rats.

New York: Outraged Buffalo Residents Were Not Warned About Change Of Landing
Approaches!!! A construction project at the Buffalo Niagara International
Airport is changing the way planes approach to land and that is creating
concern by those who live near by. Noise levels are higher than normal in at
least one neighborhood close to the airport. Residents say its the worst it
has ever been. As part of the $34 million improvement project, an instrument
landing system has been shut down. Pilots must decide themselves which
runway to use according to weather conditions and that causes increased air
traffic over certain neighborhoods. The NFTA says things should get back to
normal once the project is completed in September. Watch the complete story
by clicking on the video link. Read the story at:
http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_articl...?storyid=30111

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Important Aviation News Stories This Week

Battle Over Fort Lauderdale Airport Runway Takes a Legal Turn

AMY SHERMAN AND INA PAIVA CORDLE
Miami Herald, Distributed by the Associated Press

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic...tion=1&id=2975

Broward County officials have renewed their efforts to convince the Federal
Aviation Administration to stop using one of the runways at Fort
Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport to reduce flight delays.

The latest round of bickering about the disputed runway started Wednesday
after the FAA used the runway for eight flights between 10:06 and 10:23 a.m.

The county says using the runway, which cuts across a diagonal northwest to
southeast, violates an agreement aimed at protecting residents at either end
of the airstrip from noise.

The county wants the diagonal runway used only when the main runway is
rendered unusable by crosswinds, repairs or an emergency.

But the FAA says it needs to employ all options to keep planes operating on
time. In March, Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood's delays ranked as the worst among
the nation's top 35 airports, said FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen.

The FAA started using the diagonal runway to relieve congestion in June.

After the flurry of activity Wednesday, Broward Aviation Department director
Tom Jargiello sent the FAA a letter asking it to ''cease and desist'' using
the runway beyond the already-prescribed conditions.

The latest skirmish between the two agencies is a result of conflicting
needs. The FAA wants smooth travel while the county wants to protect
neighbors, many of whom are vocal about their noise complaints.

Since June, the county has been moving toward suing the FAA over use of that
runway. Now Broward expects to file a petition with the U.S. Court of
Appeals in Washington, D.C., by Aug. 15.

For several years, the county has had a rule that the diagonal runway is
only to be used when ''crosswinds require the use of such runway, or
operational necessity requires such use.''

The debate now is over the meaning of ''operational necessity'' while the
airport struggles with flight delays.

Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood, which has staked its niche among low-cost
carriers, is the fastest-growing major airport in the country.

As traffic has soared over the past two years, delays have also skyrocketed.

''The flight delays affect travelers throughout the national air space
system, particularly in the Northeast,'' the FAA's Bergen said.

In March, the FAA suggested the airport use the diagonal runway as needed to
help alleviate delays.

On June 23, the FAA sent a letter to the airport outlining the agency's
position on the use of the diagonal runway.

Since then the FAA has employed the runway more, but only sporadically, said
Bergen, who did not know the exact number of times it has been used.

The FAA maintains it isn't violating any regulations by using the runway a
few additional times.

''It is used as a last resort when all other efforts and all other
strategies to minimize delays have been implemented,'' Bergen said.

Airport spokesman Steve Belleme said the county wants the FAA to hold off
the extra use of the runway until a neighborhood impact study is completed.

Last week attorneys for the county and the FAA met to try to resolve the
dispute, but that hasn't worked so far.

''It just seems to be the FAA is out to prove something, that they can use
this runway,'' said county Commissioner John Rodstrom, whose district
includes neighborhoods surrounding the airport.

Residents of Fort Lauderdale's Edgewood neighborhood accept that they will
hear more noise if bad weather or runway repairs necessitate use of the
diagonal runway, said Cliff Iacino, civic association president.

But using it to relieve congestion could mean even more noise with no
warning, he said. ''We're kind of in a state of disbelief.''.



  #2  
Old August 8th 05, 01:39 AM
Scott M. Kozel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Bill Mulcahy" wrote:

General Aviation To Be Permanently Restricted From Washington, DC? While of
course I am for ANY restriction on aviation...anywhere, I find it suspicious
that the FAA wants to ban small general aviation aircraft coming even miles
from Washington, DC while allowing the nearby "Reagan" National Airport to
operate less than a mile from the Pentagon and about two miles from the
National Mall, the White House and the Capitol Building!!! Why not close
Reagan National permanently? It was done for months after 9/11.


3 weeks, in a time of vastly reduced air traffic.

The reason,
as everyone knows, is because Reagan National Airport is used by congressmen
and senators as their own private airport; so they are not about to close it.


Oh please, spare us the demagoguery. Congress is 535 people. National
Airport handles over 50,000 airline passengers per day, and closing it
would transform the D.C. region into one of the worst-served regions in
the country as far as airline service.

The danger from this airport is not only from terrorists but could come
from just an ordinary airplane accident. On January 12, 1981 a plane with 79
took off in a snowstorm (nice going boys) and crashed in the Potomac River,
killing 74.


The only fatalities were from those on the plane. How is that "danger"
any different from many other regional airports? Only one jet crash at
National... some U.S. airports have had several jet crashes.
  #3  
Old August 8th 05, 03:21 AM
khobar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in message
...
"Bill Mulcahy" wrote:

General Aviation To Be Permanently Restricted From Washington, DC? While

of
course I am for ANY restriction on aviation...anywhere, I find it

suspicious
that the FAA wants to ban small general aviation aircraft coming even

miles
from Washington, DC while allowing the nearby "Reagan" National Airport

to
operate less than a mile from the Pentagon and about two miles from the
National Mall, the White House and the Capitol Building!!! Why not close
Reagan National permanently? It was done for months after 9/11.


3 weeks, in a time of vastly reduced air traffic.

The reason,
as everyone knows, is because Reagan National Airport is used by

congressmen
and senators as their own private airport; so they are not about to

close it.

Oh please, spare us the demagoguery. Congress is 535 people. National
Airport handles over 50,000 airline passengers per day, and closing it
would transform the D.C. region into one of the worst-served regions in
the country as far as airline service.

The danger from this airport is not only from terrorists but could come
from just an ordinary airplane accident. On January 12, 1981 a plane

with 79
took off in a snowstorm (nice going boys) and crashed in the Potomac

River,
killing 74.


The only fatalities were from those on the plane. How is that "danger"


Unfortunately this is not the case:

"There were 74 passengers, including 3 infants, and 5 crew members on board.
All but 5 died. The aircraft struck 7 occupied vehicles on an Interstate
highway bridge and tore away a railing, killing 4 more people before it
plunged through the ice into the Potomac River. A total of 78 persons died
in the worst accident in Washington DC history. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90

However, the fact that there were other fatalities does not diminish your
point.

Paul Nixon


  #4  
Old August 8th 05, 03:36 AM
Scott M. Kozel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"khobar" wrote:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

The danger from this airport is not only from terrorists but could come
from just an ordinary airplane accident. On January 12, 1981 a plane with 79
took off in a snowstorm (nice going boys) and crashed in the Potomac River,
killing 74.


The only fatalities were from those on the plane. How is that "danger"


Unfortunately this is not the case:

"There were 74 passengers, including 3 infants, and 5 crew members on board.
All but 5 died. The aircraft struck 7 occupied vehicles on an Interstate
highway bridge and tore away a railing, killing 4 more people before it
plunged through the ice into the Potomac River. A total of 78 persons died
in the worst accident in Washington DC history. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90

However, the fact that there were other fatalities does not diminish your
point.


My own website article (!) that has been online since 1997 agrees that
there were 4 fatalities on the bridge. Still, it is not uncommon for
an airline disaster to kill small numbers of people on the ground.

"14th Street Bridge, the Air Florida Crash, and Subway Disaster" -
http://www.roadstothefuture.com/AirF...SubwayDis.html

Quote --

The plane had taken off from nearby Washington National Airport, and due
to wing icing and pilot error, the aircraft lost altitude and crashed
into the 14th Street Bridge and the Potomac River less than a mile from
the airport. There were only 5 survivors out of 79 people on board.
The plane was a Boeing 737 two-engine jet airliner that was Air Florida
Flight 90. The aircraft descended nose-high and tail-low, and at 4:01
PM, the tail struck the deck and parapet of the Rochambeau Bridge (the
northbound span), struck seven vehicles, killed 4 motorists and injured
4 motorists, and went into the frozen river between the Rochambeau
Bridge and the express span (they are a couple hundred yards apart).
The aircraft shattered the surface ice, and broke into multiple large
pieces which quickly sank into the river. There were a total of 78
fatalities.

--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
  #5  
Old August 8th 05, 11:16 AM
Phil Miller
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:38:06 GMT, "Bill Mulcahy"
wrote:

Still a f#cking idiot after all these years, eh Bill?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
As Bill Sees It: (Editorial) Toronto Crash Investigation To Ignore Weather
Problems And Blame The Pilot? Some Canadian news stories are starting to
hint that the Canadian government is going to blame the Toronto's Pearson's
Airport crash on "pilot error." It seems more and more governments are
copying the way the FAA always blames pilots first when a plane crashes in a
violent storm. If they blamed this crash, which occurred during a violent
storm, on weather conditions, then the government would have to take the
blame,


"THE government" is responsible for the weather conditions? HAARP is
more advanced than we believed.

and liability, for allowing the plane to land. They are not about to
do that. What the Toronto Airport operators did was declare a violent storm
weather "red alert" and then left it up to the PILOT to make the decision
whether or not to land!!!


The captain is in command of his aircraft. He can choose to land, or to
fly to another airfield,for which he is carrying sufficient fuel as
mandated by aviation law.

don't understand why pilots are allowed to make a life or death decision like this


You don't understand a lot of things,Bill. A pilot's job is to make life
and death decisions. That's why they get paid the big bucks. Thankfully
they don't have to make them all the time, but we rely on them when the
time comes.

when they don't have the extensive weather information that people at the airport have.


Why not? It's only a radio call away. If you knew even the first thing
about aviation you would know that when approaching an airport to land,
one of the first tasks a crew will complete is to obtain the latest
weather for that airfield. And they have weather RADAR. Big picture
screen right in front of them. Can't miss it.

Get a clue Bill. how long have you been peddling this ****?

Phil
--
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein
  #6  
Old August 8th 05, 03:42 PM
Barrie Martindale
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


How can this person rant on about the Red Alert when he obviously doesn't
know the definition?!


"Phil Miller" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:38:06 GMT, "Bill Mulcahy"
wrote:

Still a f#cking idiot after all these years, eh Bill?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
As Bill Sees It: (Editorial) Toronto Crash Investigation To Ignore Weather
Problems And Blame The Pilot? Some Canadian news stories are starting to
hint that the Canadian government is going to blame the Toronto's
Pearson's
Airport crash on "pilot error." It seems more and more governments are
copying the way the FAA always blames pilots first when a plane crashes in
a
violent storm. If they blamed this crash, which occurred during a violent
storm, on weather conditions, then the government would have to take the
blame,


"THE government" is responsible for the weather conditions? HAARP is
more advanced than we believed.

and liability, for allowing the plane to land. They are not about to
do that. What the Toronto Airport operators did was declare a violent
storm
weather "red alert" and then left it up to the PILOT to make the decision
whether or not to land!!!


The captain is in command of his aircraft. He can choose to land, or to
fly to another airfield,for which he is carrying sufficient fuel as
mandated by aviation law.

don't understand why pilots are allowed to make a life or death decision
like this


You don't understand a lot of things,Bill. A pilot's job is to make life
and death decisions. That's why they get paid the big bucks. Thankfully
they don't have to make them all the time, but we rely on them when the
time comes.

when they don't have the extensive weather information that people at the
airport have.


Why not? It's only a radio call away. If you knew even the first thing
about aviation you would know that when approaching an airport to land,
one of the first tasks a crew will complete is to obtain the latest
weather for that airfield. And they have weather RADAR. Big picture
screen right in front of them. Can't miss it.

Get a clue Bill. how long have you been peddling this ****?

Phil
--
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein



  #7  
Old August 8th 05, 09:53 PM
Flightlevel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A Red Alert is issued only for the ramp workers. It's just so that they
aren't out on the ramp as risk of getting hit by lightning whenever
there are numerous strikes near the airport.

The weather could be just fine during a red alert.


Barrie Martindale wrote:
How can this person rant on about the Red Alert when he obviously doesn't
know the definition?!


"Phil Miller" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:38:06 GMT, "Bill Mulcahy"
wrote:

Still a f#cking idiot after all these years, eh Bill?


---------------------------------------------------------------------
As Bill Sees It: (Editorial) Toronto Crash Investigation To Ignore Weather
Problems And Blame The Pilot? Some Canadian news stories are starting to
hint that the Canadian government is going to blame the Toronto's
Pearson's
Airport crash on "pilot error." It seems more and more governments are
copying the way the FAA always blames pilots first when a plane crashes in
a
violent storm. If they blamed this crash, which occurred during a violent
storm, on weather conditions, then the government would have to take the
blame,


"THE government" is responsible for the weather conditions? HAARP is
more advanced than we believed.


and liability, for allowing the plane to land. They are not about to
do that. What the Toronto Airport operators did was declare a violent
storm
weather "red alert" and then left it up to the PILOT to make the decision
whether or not to land!!!


The captain is in command of his aircraft. He can choose to land, or to
fly to another airfield,for which he is carrying sufficient fuel as
mandated by aviation law.


don't understand why pilots are allowed to make a life or death decision
like this


You don't understand a lot of things,Bill. A pilot's job is to make life
and death decisions. That's why they get paid the big bucks. Thankfully
they don't have to make them all the time, but we rely on them when the
time comes.


when they don't have the extensive weather information that people at the
airport have.


Why not? It's only a radio call away. If you knew even the first thing
about aviation you would know that when approaching an airport to land,
one of the first tasks a crew will complete is to obtain the latest
weather for that airfield. And they have weather RADAR. Big picture
screen right in front of them. Can't miss it.

Get a clue Bill. how long have you been peddling this ****?

Phil
--
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein




  #8  
Old August 8th 05, 11:30 PM
Scott M. Kozel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Barrie Martindale" wrote:

How can this person rant on about the Red Alert when he obviously doesn't
know the definition?!


Because Birdstrike Bill has an Internet ISP connection, that's how! :-)



"Phil Miller" wrote:
"Bill Mulcahy" wrote:

Still a f#cking idiot after all these years, eh Bill?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
As Bill Sees It: (Editorial) Toronto Crash Investigation To Ignore Weather
Problems And Blame The Pilot? Some Canadian news stories are starting to
hint that the Canadian government is going to blame the Toronto's
Pearson's
Airport crash on "pilot error." It seems more and more governments are
copying the way the FAA always blames pilots first when a plane crashes in
a
violent storm. If they blamed this crash, which occurred during a violent
storm, on weather conditions, then the government would have to take the
blame,


"THE government" is responsible for the weather conditions? HAARP is
more advanced than we believed.

and liability, for allowing the plane to land. They are not about to
do that. What the Toronto Airport operators did was declare a violent
storm
weather "red alert" and then left it up to the PILOT to make the decision
whether or not to land!!!


The captain is in command of his aircraft. He can choose to land, or to
fly to another airfield,for which he is carrying sufficient fuel as
mandated by aviation law.

don't understand why pilots are allowed to make a life or death decision
like this


You don't understand a lot of things,Bill. A pilot's job is to make life
and death decisions. That's why they get paid the big bucks. Thankfully
they don't have to make them all the time, but we rely on them when the
time comes.

when they don't have the extensive weather information that people at the
airport have.


Why not? It's only a radio call away. If you knew even the first thing
about aviation you would know that when approaching an airport to land,
one of the first tasks a crew will complete is to obtain the latest
weather for that airfield. And they have weather RADAR. Big picture
screen right in front of them. Can't miss it.

Get a clue Bill. how long have you been peddling this ****?

Phil
--
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein

  #9  
Old August 9th 05, 01:46 AM
Pooh Bear
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Barrie Martindale wrote:

How can this person rant on about the Red Alert when he obviously doesn't
know the definition?!


It's just 'what he does'. Can't be changed.

Graham

  #10  
Old August 9th 05, 06:07 AM
Gord Beaman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Quote --

The plane had taken off from nearby Washington National Airport, and due
to wing icing and pilot error, the aircraft lost altitude and crashed
into the 14th Street Bridge and the Potomac River less than a mile from
the airport.


I don't think that this is correct...I believe that the crew
didn't turn the engine anti-icing on which caused the engine
probes to ice up and deliver an improper reading of EPR to the
cockpit gauges...this caused the EPR to read high and as a result
the engines were operated at something like 70-80% power instead
of 100%. This caused a near stall and very slow (or no) climb
until they hit the bridge. I'll never understand why the
throttles weren't firewalled when they almost stalled on rotate.
(but then, hindsight.....etc
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
 




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