Challenger Crashe at TEB

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message It does sound like something failed that
blocked or froze the control
column. Sounds unlikely, but this was an experienced captain (one
source said 15,000 hours) so I trust he knew that the stick wasn't
moving enough for takeoff.

Trusting sorts get squashed. The PIC may very well have that much flight
time, but according to my source he was typed in Challengers just 2 weeks
ago. The FO purportedly had a couple hours total in Challengers. My source
indicates that one pilot wanted to continue the take-off and one wanted to
abort. Poor CRM led to mayhem.

D. (so much for icing)

Peter R. wrote:
George Patterson wrote:


An AP article stated that the temperature at the time was 20 degrees.
I think that rules out frost, but I'm not sure.


George, as I posted earlier, I have personally experienced three different
aircraft frosting over within 10 minutes of landing when the outside air
temp was around 5-10 degrees F. Temperature alone does not rule out
frost.

Yes, I routinely have frost on my car windshields at all sorts of temps.
We had a cold snap a week ago where we got down to -15F a couple of
nights and I had a light layer of really hard to remove frost on my
vehicle that is parked outside. Unfortunately, polishing it smooth
doesn't help much for visibility through it!


Matt

Capt.Doug wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message It does sound like something failed that
blocked or froze the control
column. Sounds unlikely, but this was an experienced captain (one
source said 15,000 hours) so I trust he knew that the stick wasn't
moving enough for takeoff.


Trusting sorts get squashed. The PIC may very well have that much flight
time, but according to my source he was typed in Challengers just 2 weeks
ago. The FO purportedly had a couple hours total in Challengers. My source
indicates that one pilot wanted to continue the take-off and one wanted to
abort. Poor CRM led to mayhem.

Yes, poor CRM can be deadly. I didn't hear the time in type, just the
total PIC. Even so, it seems like someone that experienced would be
able to tell functioning controls from non-functioning controls.


Matt

Joe Johnson wrote:

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
Thank you for pointing this out. The "visable moisture" requirement is
for
in-flight icing, not frost. Temp/Dewpoint at TEB yesterday morning was
M04/M08. Obviously the "collecting surface" was below freezing and the
temp
dewpoint spread was narrow enough for the humidity to sublimate and create
frost on the wings.

Jim

Sounds like we're closing in on an answer, or at the very least reasonably
informed speculation.

Mechanical failure and errors in the cockpit have been ruled out already?
Nothing wrong with speculations, but why limit it to a narrow area?

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...
Capt.Doug wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message It does sound like something failed that
blocked or froze the control
column. Sounds unlikely, but this was an experienced captain (one
source said 15,000 hours) so I trust he knew that the stick wasn't
moving enough for takeoff.


Trusting sorts get squashed. The PIC may very well have that much flight
time, but according to my source he was typed in Challengers just 2 weeks
ago. The FO purportedly had a couple hours total in Challengers. My source
indicates that one pilot wanted to continue the take-off and one wanted to
abort. Poor CRM led to mayhem.

Yes, poor CRM can be deadly. I didn't hear the time in type, just the total PIC. Even so, it seems like someone that
experienced would be able to tell functioning controls from non-functioning controls.


Matt


Voice recorder was pretty much quite except for an abort takeoff comment. The pilot apparently said 'something broke'
after the crash, and another comment I heard said that the yoke only moved about 1"....

Anyone here know what kind of control locks are installed on the
Challengers?

Dave


On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 00:24:11 GMT, "Blueskies"
wrote:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...
Capt.Doug wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message It does sound like something failed that
blocked or froze the control
column. Sounds unlikely, but this was an experienced captain (one
source said 15,000 hours) so I trust he knew that the stick wasn't
moving enough for takeoff.


Trusting sorts get squashed. The PIC may very well have that much flight
time, but according to my source he was typed in Challengers just 2 weeks
ago. The FO purportedly had a couple hours total in Challengers. My source
indicates that one pilot wanted to continue the take-off and one wanted to
abort. Poor CRM led to mayhem.

Yes, poor CRM can be deadly. I didn't hear the time in type, just the total PIC. Even so, it seems like someone that
experienced would be able to tell functioning controls from non-functioning controls.


Matt


Voice recorder was pretty much quite except for an abort takeoff comment. The pilot apparently said 'something broke'
after the crash, and another comment I heard said that the yoke only moved about 1"....

"Dave" wrote in message ...
Anyone here know what kind of control locks are installed on the
Challengers?

Dave



That is what I was thinking...

Blueskies wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message ...

Anyone here know what kind of control locks are installed on the
Challengers?

Dave




That is what I was thinking...



I don't know what the control system design is on the Challenger, but
perusing the Moog web site suggests that it uses Moog hydraulic
actuators. If that is the case, then no control locks are needed. I've
never heard of a modern bizjet using control locks, but I suppose there
are some that do.


Matt

quoted from
shorter link is: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2023496A

Pilot pins jet crash on failed controller
Tells investigators cockpit wheel stuck
Saturday, February 05, 2005
BY ANA M. ALAYA
Star-Ledger Staff

The pilot of a corporate jet that sped off a runway at Teterboro Airport
and smashed into a warehouse told investigators yesterday that the
control wheel malfunctioned, forcing him to abruptly abort takeoff.

But the 58-year-old veteran pilot slammed on the brakes and slowed the
plane from 176 mph to 104 mph in 10 seconds, which one aviation expert
said made the crash "survivable." He also steered the plane to a less
crowded area of Route 46.
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"He hit the brakes so hard he has bruises all over his feet," said
Michael A. Moulis, a lawyer for pilot John Kimberling and Platinum Jet
Management, the company that was operating the Bombardier CL-600
Challenger that rammed into a clothing warehouse Wednesday, injuring 20.

The plane, carrying eight passengers, careened down a 6,000-foot runway,
crashed through a fence and slid across busy Route 46, hitting two cars
before smacking into the garage door of the warehouse and bursting into
flames.

Federal investigators, while declining to pinpoint a control wheel
malfunction as the cause of the crash so early in their probe, said they
are examining the cockpit controls and other mechanical issues after a
90-minute interview with the pilot yesterday.

"The pilot stated that the flight was uneventful until the moment of
liftoff," Debbie Hersman, a spokeswoman for the National Transportation
Safety Board, said at a news conference yesterday.

"He got only one inch of movement from the yoke (the control wheel),"
Hersman said. "He hit the brakes and the thrust reversers ... and tried
to identify a path to steer it to."

Normally a pilot needs to move the control wheel, or yoke, three or four
inches back toward himself to sufficiently raise the nose of the plane
for takeoff, Hersman said.

"He told our investigators he didn't get the response he needed,"
Hersman said.

The pilot's account was consistent with some information retrieved from
the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder, and video footage
of the aircraft on the runway taken from an airport security camera,
according to Hersman.

Investigators still need to interview the co-pilot, Carlos W.
Salaverria, 31, of Miramar, Fla., several more passengers and several
more airport ground workers.

Both pilots are being treated at the Hackensack University Medical
Center. Each suffered a broken leg in the crash.

A lawyer for Salaverria said his client, a married father of two, was
heavily sedated yesterday and would have to undergo surgery tomorrow for
serious wounds to his lower body, and was suffering from post-traumatic
stress. The lawyer said he didn't know when Salaverria could talk to
officials.

"Based on what I heard, the pilot and co-pilot are on the same exact
page," said Manuel Epelbaum, a Miami personal injury lawyer. "Carlos is
going to give the same scenario as the pilot. It was some kind of
mechanical failure on the plane."

Epelbaum said that when the control jammed, Salaverria helped the pilot
pull back on it and employ the thrust reversers to slow the plane.

"If anything, these two guys were heroes. I think the pilot, co-pilot
and crew were heroic in that there was no loss of life. They maintained
control of the plane after an abort, didn't spin off, break the landing
gear or explode."

Moulis said both pilots "pulled and pulled and pulled," on the control
wheel at the point they should have taken off, "but it wouldn't go and
they realized the plane wasn't going to get off the ground."

After the crash, Kimberling crawled on his hands and knees with a broken
leg, touching every seat in the aircraft to make sure no one was left
inside, his lawyer said.

"He keeps asking, did I hurt anybody?" Moulis said.

A woman described as a cabin aide, Angelica Calad-Gomez, helped
passengers out of the plane. "She was a real hero. She was soaked in
fuel and kept going back to make sure everyone was off the plane,"
Moulis said.

According to FAA records, Kimberling has logged 15,805 flight hours and
is licensed to fly five different kinds of jets. Salaverria has logged
4,800 flight hours and is licensed to fly one type of jet. Records show
neither pilot has ever been disciplined.

The NTSB has requested maintenance records for the airplane from
Platinum in Fort Lauderdale to determine if the plane has a history of
problems with the control wheel, Hersman said.

The plane involved in the crash was originally used by the Canadian
military in the 1980s, is one of the original and oldest of the
Challenger jets manufactured and has 6,800 flight hours and 4,300
take-offs and landings, according to the NTSB.

Investigators are also struggling to decode the flight data recorder
information and determine why it only recorded 10 seconds of the 43
seconds from the time the plane revved up to impact. The information
gleaned so far shows the plane was going 176 mph when the recorder was
switched on, and 104 mph when it was turned off, sometime after the
aborted takeoff.

The rapid deceleration likely saved lives, said Jack Olcott, president
of the New Jersey Aviation Association.

"The slower the airplane, the less energy needs to be absorbed in the
accident," Olcott said. "He was able to slow the plane down and to
create a survivable accident."

One of the most seriously injured victims, James Dinnall, 66, of
Paterson, who was riding in a car struck by the plane as it skidded
across Route 46, remained in critical condition at Hackensack University
Medical Center.

The NTSB has found no evidence that ice was present on the plane when it
crashed. A preliminary review of video footage that shows the airplane
on the runway showed there was no signs of frost on the windshield when
the plane took off, according to Hersman.

Anyone here know what kind of control locks are installed on the
Challengers?


They don't have control locks. They are boosted controls and have
dampers when no pressure is on.

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