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#181
June 21st 04, 04:40 AM
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#183
June 21st 04, 05:02 AM
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Clearly you have never had a security clearance. those of us who have know
that the default position is to classify everything and declassify almost nothing. So mere mortals,that means American People and their elected represantatives, should not know anything or should only know what you want them to know. Thanks for the clarification,exactly that was my point. Why - because if you fail to classify something (or mistakenly declassify something) that should remain secret then you can't go back. Of course the mere mortals and their elected represantatives have no idea about works of their unelected "masters". What loons like you fail to realise is that the documents that you think support your fantasy no doubt have some classified info in them, it just has nothing to do with your delusions. Yeah right,pre-Pearl Harbor cyrpt technology is more relevant than post PH technology,you implied that before. Only reason that they are still unlocked is that these documents prove the existence of a "school of thought" among our unelected "masters" within US gov't which basically says gov't should even kill,or allow others to kill,its own soldiers,sailors,civilians to achieve broader political goals. This strategy exists for last 150 years with minor modifications,and unless mere mortals face the reality and confront their unelected masters,or unelected masters blunder gravely (thats happening now) will continue for another 150 years. So now well documented historical fact is 'political correctness', trying that one doesn't hep your case either. Well documented? Didn't you say by default everything is classified,nothing is declassified? So,you are the one who decides what to declassify,not mere mortals The mere mortals and their elected Reps.are only supposed to see your "well selected" documents and whitewash your actions. Our unelected Masters need them only to legitimatize their actions not as an Oversight authority. And since you don't know the contents of those withdrawn docs, you don't know what it is they might tell, you are simply building a fantasy. Pre-Pearl Harbor documents that were part of first batch released from Crane,were withdrawn after the release of "Days of Deceipt".So they were available for a short period. I think the simplest thing to point out here is that you think the movie "Pearl Harbor" is a documentary, which indicates how little credibility you actually have on the subject. The starting point was the movie,and you have bitten it off.
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#184
June 21st 04, 05:28 AM
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Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 3.
The reply includes the other tactic, of changing the appearance order of what little text survives. The story so far, 1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to make Pearl Harbor the only target) 2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where the name came from. 3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack, dropped when a list of such investigations was posted 4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted. 5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol bombers available) 6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released. Claim dropped again. 7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN. 8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization." Claim dropped. 9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough. Claim dropped. 10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped. The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific. 11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out what the memo actually said. 12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his memo header makes it clear he was in a different area. 13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed to be wrong. No proof mind you. 14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless the receive official permission. That was a good one. Simple really, just keep dropping all the claimed evidence, but keep the conclusion. Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over. Denyav wrote in message ... In the early 1990s the U. S. Navy transferred all its cryptologic archives from Crane, Indiana to the National Archives in Washington. This includes 26,581 JN-25 intercepts from 1 September to 7 December. All of these are available for public review. deleted text, "Stinnett is trying to run the line the truth is out there, the documents are missing, to defend against all the holes in his book. Hence the above claims of hidden documents. All IJN messages had a serial number, missing serials are assumed to be US hiding them, as opposed to US not intercepting them." You forgat to mention: EXCEPT those withdrawn documents (Because of NSA notices of course) I note by the way there has been no attempt to tell us who is saying there are these NSA notices. You see Robert Stinnett has been running this line as he tries to wave away the holes in his book's claims. deleted text, "By the way folks, note Stinnett is very definite in the book about what messages were decoded. Including ones the Japanese say were never sent by radio. Stinnett is the truth bringer, even when he says he has no proof it seems. Also Stinnett was not the motivator for the release of the documents, he took advantage of their release." Stephen Budiansky, using the original USN designation AN for what was later called JN-25B. You forgat to mention his NSA ties. This is quite funny really, should we also mention Stinnett's ties to the USN? Of course "ties" are brought in as a way of crediting or discrediting the stories, NSA ties would be hailed as a plus if the author voted for the conspiracy. Deleted text, "Contemporaneous, month-by-month reports on the progress of the Navy codebreakers, each date-stamped, cover the entire period 1940-41. They cover the work of the entire unit known as OP-20-GY, the Navy cryptanalytic office in Washington, and also report on the progress of the Navy decryption units in Hawaii and Cavite. They show unambiguously that when the AN codebook was changed on December 1940, and subsequently when the additive tables used with the code were changed on August 1, 1941, the U.S. Navy lost its ability to read this traffic altogether. By December 1, 1941, only 3,800 of the 30,000-plus code groups and 2,500 of the 50,000 additives in AN had been recovered. (Most of the recovered code groups were those for numerals, an even further limitation on reading.) " Also note, "None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited: United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)" The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked. "Stinnett simply ignores the IJN code book upgrade of December 1940 in order to make his book work. That is the blinding of allied intelligence after making good progress into the initial code" book "A" (hence the classification of the code in use in 1941 as JN-25 "B") is simply ignored by Stinnett. When challenged about this on his web site he simply failed to respond, except to complain about spelling errors and insist In the Archieve II records Safford asserts that US was reading 90% of JN25b prior to Dec.7. This is really funny Stinnett has no idea what the allies were reading, now it seems it is 90%. A nice figure, the only trouble is the documents show this to be about 90% too much. Oh yes, Stinnett would never use JN-25B he demands people use AN (original US designation) or code book D (IJN designation) or 5 numeral (another US designation), when you ask him about the code later designated JN-25. It would be nice for Stinnett to give something more than "in the archive" as a reference for this claimed smoking gun document. JN-25 was a book of 5 digit numbers standing for words, letters or numbers. This book was introduced in mid 1939 "A" and substantially upgraded in December 1940, "B". To disguise the code groups a book of random numbers was used, the numbers were added to the code group values. The random numbers were changed more frequently, 5 times before the "B" book was introduced, then again in February, August and December 1941. Each time a book was introduced the allies had to go back to square 1, since they had to accumulate enough messages using the new book of random numbers to figure out the random number sequences. The 90% readable figure is a joke. Also note in 1945 when the USN went back over the code books and the 1941 messages to see what it could learn it was realised many of the previously used values were in error, several hundred in around 35,000 recovered out of the 50,000 used. After the 1945 work the USN figured it had 48,000 out of the 50,000 random numbers. The same thing happened for the version in use before Midway, the 1945 work started with 47,000 values, initially found about 1,000 were wrong, and ultimately ended up with just over 48,000 out of the 50,000 random numbers. One of the ways into the code was the fact the IJN did not use the random number (additive) book correctly, too many messages were sent using the first few pages of the book instead of spreading use throughout the book. So around 60% of the messages used around 20% of the additive book values. According routing designator Nov.16 Lietwiler letter was also seen by Safford . But Safford did not say anything to Congressional investigators about his assertion or Lirtwiler letter. Ah yes the Lietwiler letter, the refuge of last resort. For a start the letter was not addressed to Safford. However I am amused by the claim the routing designator is proof Safford saw it, after all the routing designator on the McCollum memo proves only his boss saw the famed memo, the memo did not go to FDR. The idea Safford might understand what the letter means and so knows it was not of relevance seems to be ignored. The actual quote that has Stinnett very interested, "We have stopped work on the period 1 February to 31 July as we have all we can do to keep up with the current period. We are reading enough current traffic to keep two translators very busy, i.e. with their code recovery efforts etc. included" Note what gets dropped from the conspiracy version, the fact the translators were not translating documents full time. They had a range of duties one of which was translating documents, another was assigning meaning to code groups. Also note the current period is being implied as 1 August 1941 onwards, after the additive change. Given the code book had not changed going through the previous additive book period was still a way to find new code groups. Japanese is a very context sensitive language, one of the major efforts of the translators was to take broken out code groups and try and figure out the meaning of the groups, the code recovery work. Think of it this way 11111 22222 33333 44444 11111 55555. Now tell me the meaning. How about The 22222 33333 44444 the 55555. We are reading 1/3 of the message folks. Another clue. The 22222 33333 on the 55555. 50% readable now, surely the text is obvious. The cat 33333 on the 55555. 2/3 readable. The cat sat on the 55555. Think you can fill in the final word? Of course the message "The cat 33333 on the 55555." could be "The cat slept on the chair". The translators did much more than translating decrypted documents. Of Course US congress was only allowed to investigate blinfolded, They were allowed to investigate Pearl Harbor but only by using hand picked documents. Translation the lack of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up. It happens only in Washington. Stinnett lives near Washington. Oh yes apparently no other country in the world has the ability to mount cover ups. In summary folks, the conspiracy is right, even if the claimed evidence melts away. The rest is the text deleted from the non reply, apart from a little text allowed to survive in the above text, out of order but it was allowed in. Yes folks, Robert Stinnett wrote a book where he relied on the US intercepting and decoding key IJN messages, then at the end of the book he told us all he had no idea what the US decoding abilities were. Just ignore the fact all through the book it is assumed the needed messages were decoded as required. It does help him when he ignores the change over from the A to the B version of JN-25 in late 1940, just assumed the success against the A version carried over to the B version, which was a different code book. Stinnett simply ignores the IJN code book upgrade of December 1940 in order to make his book work. That is the blinding of allied intelligence after making good progress into the initial code book "A" (hence the classification of the code in use in 1941 as JN-25 "B") is simply ignored by Stinnett. When challenged about this on his web site he simply failed to respond, except to complain about spelling errors and insist on "correct terminology". Taking Stinnett's word is a bad move. If you want a fun exercise in fact checking try and find a Stinnett footnote that actually backs up the claims in the text. So change the subject, peddle Stinnett's fiction about Pearl then peddle his fiction about US archives. Also note below which section McCollum was in, not OP-20-GY (codebreakers), the deleted claim was, "The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit responsible IJN dispatches." This claim had to go, along with Pearl Harbor the movie as a source, the British knew more than the US and so on. I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with. "Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940 Memorandum For The Directors Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..." A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore." The USN did not use British bases until after the war started. There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading for Malaya. So this never happened pre war. By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement had been signed in 1940 or earlier. "B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)." As for point A. Never happened pre war. "C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang Kai-shek." 30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787 aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would have been a lot more aircraft for a start. By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers, 70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers. So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937 is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well? How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939. "D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore." Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through. "E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific." There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941. By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from DANFS, according to my by hand counts. 11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41 7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35 So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present. 12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit So the 12 submarine force is restored. 1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the 5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and arrived at the end of 1940. 1940 Seawolf (autumn) 10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion 12/40 Shark 1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41 at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US) 11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin, Swordfish, Skipjack Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were refitting on 8 December. "F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands." Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October, the basing decision was on 1 May 1940. "G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, Particularly oil." Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it. "H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire." Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch to the embargo. FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September scrap iron was added to the list. In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore. Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well. Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently able to influence decisions before it was written. The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese. "10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully prepared to accept the treat of war." Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China. So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months later and only after further Japanese expansion. Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government policy. Yes folks, just try and change the subject, the IJN says it did not transmit, in logs written at the time, in the wartime after action report and during the post war interrogations. This has to be ignored. The idea Yamamoto was so stupid as to park his top secret task force in a place where there was only radio communications has to be ignored. Just ignore the way traffic analysis works, the use of call signs on messages to gain an idea what is going on, the volume and size of messages. Then add direction finding on transmitters. No folks, the IJN is assumed to be completely ignorant of any sort of radio discipline or deception techniques. The conspiracy needs the IJN in on the act from1941 on. Navies are well aware of the need to limit radio traffic, they try to do it as much as possible, the IJN understood the reasons why and acted accordingly. It is amusing to see the idea couriers are less secure than radio transmissions, presumably why no one uses couriers any more. As Professor Kimball wrote: "It seems to me that to brand WSC and/or FDR as conspirators requires that they be seen as evil geniuses. But for them to allow the U.S. Fleet to be clobbered means they were stupid. That doesn't compute." " The rest of the post is simply text that could not be replied to, By the way folks, the conspiracy claims are dropped, instead we have something totally different dropped in. Deleted text, "You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US. The non real event. You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. " Translation do not deal with the issues on their merits, invent crimes from years ago and use those as an excuse to do what you want to do, above all do not think. I note the fun things like the URL for the congressional petition transcript makes note of the Japanese consulate's words about a surprise attack being possible, a message not broken out before the attack, to accuse Washington of short changing the field commanders. If the assessment is a surprise attack was possible what does that say of two things, 1) the size of the defences 2) the alertness of the defences. 1) Is largely Washington determined, 2) is locally determined. But do not worry, erase item 2 and carry on with the field commanders did nothing wrong line. Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts accordingly. Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims. By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence, but we are told 99.99% is available. Deleted text, on the Congressional moves, " http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749& Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and the waiver on time limits for decorations. " http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some of the blame. The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards. However when you want to invent fiction just change this to conspiracy accusations. By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49. The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war. The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from 34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados (PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939. Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time. Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over 200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses. Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use of logic. So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants 200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the training rate and so on. Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th? Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to its own. Deleted text, "Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen." On claims the inquiries were rigged, "I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair." Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work. So what one knew the other did as well. Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you go, there you are. Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it. The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged. What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of judgement? Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere, pick your preferred outcome. Previously before the next text was another standard claim about conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed. I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the opening day of the war. What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the subject. "By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just before the attack went in." Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines, 4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an unwanted General. Deleted text, It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made, no proof offered. Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email.
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#185
June 21st 04, 07:29 AM
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From: Tank Fixer
Date: 6/20/2004 10:40 PM Central Daylight Time Message-id: t In article , on 20 Jun 2004 05:29:07 GMT, B2431 attempted to say ..... From: Tank Fixer In article , on 15 Jun 2004 05:33:03 GMT, Denyav attempted to say ..... A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines. Exact cause of explosion is still not known,offical 1898 version was a spanish mine !. The exact cause may never be know. I am aware of the original official version. One thing is sure it was no accident and Spanians had nothing to do with it. Maybe Aliens masquarading as Spanians did it. Now did you intend to contradict yourself ? Most naval experts consider it to have been a coal bunker fire next to a powder magazine. In fact the boat WAS raised and inspected before being resunk at sea. There is footage of the boat as it sank. Sometime in the 1920's IIRC ? It was done in 1912. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
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#186
June 21st 04, 07:45 AM
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over the entire period 1940-41. They
cover the work of the entire unit known as OP-20-GY, the Navy cryptanalytic office in Washington, and also report on the progress of the Navy decryption units in Hawaii and Cavite. They show unambiguously that when You spent lots of time and energy to post long usenet messages,which I appreciate,but you most of the times forget a couple of words long small details. Lets start with famous hard (!)to break JN25 codes. 1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that somehow apperared in 20th century. 2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure. 3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code book 4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940. But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months. 5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing immediately. So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies cracked the code basically. Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely cracked in December 1940. They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted. 6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys 7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code. 8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581 (acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages. 9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598 Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington D.C.to cover treason. tinnett simply ignores the IJN code book upgrade of December 1940 in order to make his book work. That is the blinding of allied intelligence after making good progress into the initial code book "A" (hence the classification And you simply ignore that Japanase actually blundered away the JN25B code when they continued to use random table books for two more months after the introduction of JN25B. It was one biggest blunders of WWII. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ende Let me formulate differently,there were no intel gaps in 1941,there were also no intel gaps in 2001. "He who controls the past ,controls the future,he who controls the present,controls the past" Orwell. I think the quote from Orwell explains why some do not like idea of reopening of Ft.Sumter,Maine and Pearl Harbor cases.
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#187
June 21st 04, 08:07 AM
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"Denyav" wrote in message ... Clearly you have never had a security clearance. those of us who have know that the default position is to classify everything and declassify almost nothing. So mere mortals,that means American People and their elected represantatives, should not know anything or should only know what you want them to know. Thanks for the clarification,exactly that was my point. Quite a few elected reps do know, they are the ones on the appropriate committees, the rest are not supposed to know. It doesn't make your point, it just shows that you lack one. Why - because if you fail to classify something (or mistakenly declassify something) that should remain secret then you can't go back. Of course the mere mortals and their elected represantatives have no idea about works of their unelected "masters". Conspirowhacko nonsense. why do you think it is that you are considered a figure of fun? Quite a few elected reps do know, they are the ones on the appropriate committees, the rest are not supposed to know. What loons like you fail to realise is that the documents that you think support your fantasy no doubt have some classified info in them, it just has nothing to do with your delusions. Yeah right,pre-Pearl Harbor cyrpt technology is more relevant than post PH technology,you implied that before. Quite possibly. Only reason that they are still unlocked is that these documents prove the existence of a "school of thought" among our unelected "masters" within US gov't which basically says gov't should even kill,or allow others to kill,its own soldiers,sailors,civilians to achieve broader political goals. This strategy exists for last 150 years with minor modifications,and unless mere mortals face the reality and confront their unelected masters,or unelected masters blunder gravely (thats happening now) will continue for another 150 years. Conspirowhacko nonsense. why do you think it is that you are considered a figure of fun? There are plenty of potential reasons for classifying Docs, you just focus on the least credible one. because you are insane. So now well documented historical fact is 'political correctness', trying that one doesn't hep your case either. Well documented? Didn't you say by default everything is classified,nothing is declassified? No, I didn't you nutjob. So,you are the one who decides what to declassify,not mere mortals The mere mortals and their elected Reps.are only supposed to see your "well selected" documents and whitewash your actions. Our unelected Masters need them only to legitimatize their actions not as an Oversight authority. Conspirowhacko nonsense. why do you think it is that you are considered a figure of fun? Quite a few elected reps do know, they are the ones on the appropriate committees, the rest are not supposed to know. And since you don't know the contents of those withdrawn docs, you don't know what it is they might tell, you are simply building a fantasy. Pre-Pearl Harbor documents that were part of first batch released from Crane,were withdrawn after the release of "Days of Deceipt".So they were available for a short period. and you don't know what was in them you nutjob, you just hope they support your delusions. I think the simplest thing to point out here is that you think the movie "Pearl Harbor" is a documentary, which indicates how little credibility you actually have on the subject. The starting point was the movie,and you have bitten it off. "The starting point was the movie", hint nutjob - it is "based on real events", not a documentary.
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#188
June 21st 04, 08:42 AM
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There are plenty of potential reasons for classifying Docs, you just focus
on the least credible one. because you are insane. "He who controls past,controls future,he who controls present,controls to past" That might be one of the potential reasons? Quite a few elected reps do know, they are the ones on the appropriate committees, the rest are not supposed to know. Yes,quite a few. Again our unelected masters in gov't decide who those "quite a few" will be It doesn't make your point, it just shows that you lack one. You do not understand the sign of the times at all. Thanks to our unelected "Masters" in gov't,surely you are not one of them,worlwide the words "Dumb American" replaced Vietnam era words "Ugly American".
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#189
June 22nd 04, 04:45 AM
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In article t,
Tank Fixer writes: In article , on 20 Jun 2004 03:48:41 GMT, So coal caught fire in a very politically correct location and time. No, coal bunker fires were known in the period to burn for weeks before flairing up. Indeed they were - one of the factors on the catastrophic nature of teh loss of the Lusitania was an ongoing bunker fire that had been going for about half the voyage - when teh torpedos hit, they stirred up the coal dust in the bunkers. Aerosol-ed coal dust is very explosive. Warships were blowing up all over the World, in just abpot all navies at that time. Coal fires aren't great seeping conflagrations - without some sort of draught, they're slichtly smouldering piles of very hot rocks. Ammunition handling wasn't particularly rigorous, either. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
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#190
June 22nd 04, 04:55 AM
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In article ,
on 21 Jun 2004 06:29:18 GMT, B2431 attempted to say ..... From: Tank Fixer Date: 6/20/2004 10:40 PM Central Daylight Time Message-id: t In article , on 20 Jun 2004 05:29:07 GMT, B2431 attempted to say ..... From: Tank Fixer In article , on 15 Jun 2004 05:33:03 GMT, Denyav attempted to say ..... A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines. Exact cause of explosion is still not known,offical 1898 version was a spanish mine !. The exact cause may never be know. I am aware of the original official version. One thing is sure it was no accident and Spanians had nothing to do with it. Maybe Aliens masquarading as Spanians did it. Now did you intend to contradict yourself ? Most naval experts consider it to have been a coal bunker fire next to a powder magazine. In fact the boat WAS raised and inspected before being resunk at sea. There is footage of the boat as it sank. Sometime in the 1920's IIRC ? It was done in 1912. Thanks, i had three numbers of the date right anyway. Do you know of any reports published of the investigation findings ? -- When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
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