For Keith Willshaw...

In article ,
on Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:45:33 -0400,
Peter Stickney attempted to say .....

In article t,
Tank Fixer writes:
In article ,
on 20 Jun 2004 03:48:41 GMT,
So coal caught fire in a very politically correct location and time.

No, coal bunker fires were known in the period to burn for weeks before
flairing up.

Indeed they were - one of the factors on the catastrophic nature of
teh loss of the Lusitania was an ongoing bunker fire that had been
going for about half the voyage - when teh torpedos hit, they stirred
up the coal dust in the bunkers. Aerosol-ed coal dust is very
explosive.

I had not heard that before, thanks.
Wheat chaff and flour have similar properties.



Warships were blowing up all over the World, in just abpot all navies
at that time. Coal fires aren't great seeping conflagrations -
without some sort of draught, they're slichtly smouldering piles of
very hot rocks. Ammunition handling wasn't particularly rigorous,
either.

I've read of concerns over magazine temperatures many times. And the powder
of the time was not as stable.


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.


Well, I do not remember any of your texts about the utmostly most
important detail of whole Pearl Harbor story,namely introduction of
JN25B code,being deleted.
Because you always avoided this issue and did not write anything about
that.
Let me repeat again,when Japanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

So.Japanese military dispatches were,as Churchill pointed out,not
secrets for US(also for Brits and Dutch)

I guess you could not find time to post anything about that

As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

denyav wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.

Well, I do not remember any of your texts about the utmostly most
important detail of whole Pearl Harbor story,namely introduction of
JN25B code,being deleted.

Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days.

Because you always avoided this issue and did not write anything about
that.

Translation Denyav will make a great effort to delete anything that
contradicts his preferred fiction. He will simply ignore what I wrote.

Let me repeat again,when Japanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

So.Japanese military dispatches were,as Churchill pointed out,not
secrets for US(also for Brits and Dutch)

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the war.

I guess you could not find time to post anything about that

Translation Denyav deletes things he does not like. The fun thing
is anyone can go and check on my posts, that is why I leave the
text in. It helps show up the lies.

The rest is cut and paste from my last post, on June 22,

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.

Simple really, just keep dropping all the claimed evidence, but keep the
conclusion.

Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and
you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over.

The fact the posts have to be deleted is the best proof they are
accurate. Also the fleeing forward to new claims, not defending
the old junk. It seems we are going to be treated to the tour of the
various conspiracy claims, which goes to prove what Denyav is
when he can quote a character in the Paral Harbor movie as a
source but also supply all the other conspiracy claims.

Since there are no sources for the following information can we assume
the nurse character in Pearl Harbor the movie is the source?

Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?

1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that
somehow apperared in 20th century.

Note by the way there is no source for this claim, note the fact the
1930's are not that far into the 20th century. Radio and telegraph
communications forced the development of coding systems.

The code groups were disguised with random numbers, it forced
the US into using machines to break the code, to try and discover
the random numbers by comparing hundreds of messages. The
code breakers indicated this was a hard thing to do.

2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for
Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure.

So why didn't the US simply drag out the US code books and use
them? Perhaps because the systems were different? Please
describe the US systems, how they worked.

3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure
number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code
book

Not quite, there were 33,333 valid code groups, in both the A and B
versions some were left blank for future expansion. In the B version
around 2/3 of the groups had a second meaning, giving around 55,000
valid meanings.

Random numbers were added to the code groups before transmission.

4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940.
But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months.

You forgot to mention the B version contained additional tables for
locations, date/time and positions, a super encypherment. These
tables were not broken out until mid 1942.

5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced
JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been
solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of
reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing
immediately.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies
cracked the code basically.

My cat has 4 legs and a tail my dog has 4 legs and a tail therefore
my dog is a cat. Simple sort of logic.

Put it to you thins way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely
cracked in December 1940.
They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted.

Yes folks this is the fun part of the lies.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys

Ah yes, the US and UK combining recoveries is simply turned into
they had the entire code and additive books.

So here we go with another basic lie. One of the problems to sort out
in early 1941 was when the US and UK had different values for valid
random numbers and meanings for valid code groups.

7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581
(acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages.

Yes folks, apparently these messages were all about Pearl Harbor.

Deleted text,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital
Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase
MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598

A more full version of the quote is,

"From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the
vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large
numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams. In
the secret American circles these were referred to as
'Magics'. The 'Magics' were repeated to us, but there
was an inevitable delay - sometimes of two or three
days - before we got them. We did not know therefore
at any given moment all that the President or Mr. Hull
knew. I make no complaint of this."

This is a favourite quote of the conspiracy crowd, it is supposed
to be Churchill confessing the code breakings they want. Apparently
putting the boot into the recently deceased FDR and also himself.

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 5.
This time the other non reply tactic, break up the "replies" into multiple
posts with only a little text in each. Usual tactics, try and erase recent
history the same way as the history from 60+ years ago.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)

Anyway let the laughs begin.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 4.

I love your tactic,by posting long messages you are trying to hide the facts,i
have not much time to that but lets try play by your own rules

Yes folks, actually posting the text of War Warning messages, the
McCollum Memo and so on is hiding the facts. Remember the
absence of proof of a conspiracy is proof of two conspiracies,
the first one and the cover up.

By the way playing by my rules would require full replies, instead
of the sad attempts to erase the facts.

Apparently there is just enough time to spout the lies, but not to
defend them.

11) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)

What the text of war warning message?
You correctly stated in your message dated 6/9 so I dont want to repeat it.

This is funny really, the original claim was the war warning message

"They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period."

Now the 180 degree turn to make it a blind for the commanders
in Hawaii.

Which locations were warned with the famed message?
Philippines,Thai,BorneoKra,maybe Guam and Samoa !!!!

You forgot the people in Hawaii were given the message as well.

Please care to find distances between these locations and Hawaii.
Your so called war warning message is actually known as "Do Nothing"
message for Pearl Harbor.

Yes folks, just ignore the text of the message, the Hawaiian
commands were certainly not ordered to do nothing.

By the way the message is now mine, all mine, isn't that wonderful?
It needs to be made a non historical document it seems, and given
a new title as well, anything but deal with what it actually said.

The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army,

"Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese
Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future
action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If
hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that
Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not,
be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem
necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat
not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures
taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow
Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers. "

To the navy,

"Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in
an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is
expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An
amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra
Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment
of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You
will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the
tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts
have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A
similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district
and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo."

The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November.

Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army
in WWII, War in the Pacific series)

page 119,

"In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs
felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately.
Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to
the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan
were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a
surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on
Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th,
Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a
warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this
failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a
warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning,
considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama,
and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was
told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of
hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt
act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other
measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned
in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur,
each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian
population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War
Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and
Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm

has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem
the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands.

Now comes even more interesting part of story.

Big lie time being signalled.

When Washington issued so called War Warning or "Pearl Harbor
Do Nothing" message? Nov 26,1941

Now hold tight,when US,British and Dutch intercepted decoded
Yamamato's JN25b coded message to First Air Fleet?

You mean the one the IJN couriered to the fleet in Hittokapu bay?
You see IJN custom was to send such orders by courier. Things
like making sure the rest of the IJN was not eavesdropping on
such sensitive information. After all any ship or shore station in
the fleet that picked up the message could take a look at the
contents and Yamamoto wanted it to be a secret operation.

US and Brits decoded this message immediately (Dutch a little bit later on
Nov.27)

So let us understand this correctly the message is now being claimed
to be sent multiple times, right?

The Nurse character in the Pearl Harbor movie told you right?

It is quite simple, when Denyav actually tries to put a source for the
claims up it is shot down, so we are left with claims with no proof.

So,the first time allies had an official japanese document at hand,not Peruvian
minister,not a Korean,not a british double agent etc,but directly from the top
brain of IJN declaring Pearl Harbor as the target.
Date of Yamamato message?
Nov.25,1941
Date of of so called Warning or "Pearl Harbor Do Nothing" message?
Nov.26,1941

Yes folks, I suppose people are aware of what else happened on
26 November, the transmission of the US terms for negotiations
to the Japanese. In effect a restatement of the original US terms,
ones Japan had already said were unacceptable. The US was
also aware of the 29 November "Things are automatically going
to happen" deadline for negotiations to succeed in Japanese
terms.

Strange isn't it, the diplomats conclude negotiations are off, so
the time has come to send a war warning. Instead the great
conspiracy has to decide because they happened on the
same date they must be related.

Just forget the allies were not decoding JN-25 in November
1941, that the message in question was not radioed according
to the IJN, that intercepted messages from the Pacific came
to Washington via airmail and sea mail, but this message,
never radioed, never decoded, was decoded in real time and
sent to Washington in real time and in an instant the US
organised a cover up, for the people in the Pacific and Washington
and London and the Dutch.

So as soon as you officially learn that Japanase were going to attack Pearl
Harbor you prepare a War Warning gor the locations far away from Pearl Harbor
but you do not even mention the name of the real Target in the message.

Its eqivalent of receiving a definite terrorist attack intelligence for NYC but
issuing terror alerts for Sydney,Athens,Delhi and Rio DeJaneiro but not NYC.

yes folks, if FDR wore green socks on 26 November that is a signal.
Sneezing twice was the go code. Anything that happens on 26
November is to be considered proof of whatever is wanted proven.

I think Washingtons motives were very clear
1)To make sure that Japanase Intelligence that US is not aware of Japanese
intentions.
2)To prevent Pearl Harbor to take steps that might deter Japanase from making
the attack.
3)To save their own asses.

I think Denyav's intentions are quite clear,
1) To spread disinformation.
2) To prevent people learning from history.
3) To show the world he cannot cope with reality.

By the way in the days before the attack the USAAF mounted a
large exercise to "defend" the island, more than normal activity.

BTW Let me remind you again JN25b code was actually broken by US when
they first intoduced that code. How? I explained it in my previous post.

Translation, the "explanation" was blown to pieces and so it cannot
be repeated only the claim has to stay. Hence the way the text has
been deleted.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

Together with the British the US had 300 values assigned
to "B version" code groups by April 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

Denyav wrote in message ...
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.

I like the effort that goes into carefully deleting unwanted items,

3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

Then you must read the words of Navy Lawyer Konigman again'
"....historical record does not establish convincincly that President
Poosevelt,General Marshall or others in Washington "DELIBERATELY" withheld
information from Adm.Kimmel or Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspiracy to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust into war"

Thas the last line of defense of a Gov't employee trying to save Gov't from
much more grave charges,namely treason.

Congratulations, show us the proof, not a single lawyer making an
claimed allegation. Note by the way this meeting decades after
Kimmel's death was said to be proof for Kimmel's accusations.

By the way the above is meant to be proof of a conspiracy, the lawyer
is saying the record does not support a conspiracy.

The actual text,

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

STEVE HONIGMAN, General Counsel of the Navy

MR. HONIGMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What I'd like to do is to
state the official position of the Department today and that position
is the following. In our view there are three principle reasons why
Admiral Kimmel's rank should not be upgraded. The first, quite
simply, is that the historical record does not establish convincingly
that President Roosevelt, General Marshall, or others in Washington
deliberately withheld information from Admiral Kimmel and General
Short as part of a plan or a conspiracy to expose Pearl Harbor to
attack in order to thrust America into the war. "

I keep posting the URL along with the URL for the congressional motion.

http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

"4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted."

Let me remind you again JN25B code was broken immediately after its
inroduction.

Big lie standard tactic, repeat as often as possible, keep the facts away.

Put it to you this way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Denyav wrote in message ...
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.

That was only time Kimmel was given the opportunity to defend himself and
present his own case and findings.
This panel exonarated him as we all know.

6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.

7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.

Back again I see. Remember folks it is all a conspiracy but only
the USN investigating the USN is free from conspiracy.

Usual stuff, the story determines whether the sources are liked,
rather than the sources determining the story is correct.

Denyav wrote in message ...
) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.

Who dropped the claim you maybe?

Strange as it promptly disappeared from the reply to my post.
Strange as it had to go away because the movie Pearl Harbor
was being used as a source of "facts", but that could not be
done if it was all psyops.

You are pretty smart,who remembers original posts?

Denyav hopes against hope no one does.

Hollywood was and is nations premier PSYOP organization.
Check out "Who paid the Piper?"
Heck I wrote the exactly same things in original posts.

Then promptly dropped them because they made a mess of
other claims.

Denyav wrote in message ...
1) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.

You are hallucinating,McCollum and its memo are the key of Japan policy I
always maintained that.

My summary of the memo,

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

All of this had to be deleted, along with the fact the memo never made
it beyond McCollums boss. So claim dropped.

Besides you have lied about the date of famed McCollum memo,the date of the
Memo is Oct.7,1940 so long before Pearl Harbor.

This is quite funny, it appears my posting the memo with the date
on it is telling lies about the date.

The rest is largely deleted text, just the key points this time, the amount of
text being ignored has grown too large.

I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the
memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white
house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to
make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR
saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with.

"Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940
Memorandum For The Directors
Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..."

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British
bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore."

The USN did not use British bases until after the war started.
There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it
ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading
for Malaya. So this never happened pre war.

By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement
had been signed in 1940 or earlier.

"B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities
and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)."

As for point A. Never happened pre war.

"C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang
Kai-shek."

30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the
British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more
aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787
aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would
have been a lot more aircraft for a start.

By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers,
70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers.

So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937
is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well?

How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese
side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939.

"D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western
Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore."

Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy
and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through.

"E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific."

There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the
memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide
to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some
in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out
of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number
available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941.

By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from
DANFS, according to my by hand counts.

11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41

7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35

So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present.

12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit

So the 12 submarine force is restored.

1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the
5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and
arrived at the end of 1940.

1940 Seawolf (autumn)

10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion
12/40 Shark

1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41
at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US)

11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin,
Swordfish, Skipjack

Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were
refitting on 8 December.

"F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in
the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands."

Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October,
the basing decision was on 1 May 1940.

"G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for
undue economic concessions, Particularly oil."

Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to
embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the
lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade
the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much
to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it.

"H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration
with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire."

Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch
to the embargo.

FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants
and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September
scrap iron was added to the list.

In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written
the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval
reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore.
Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well.

Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently
able to influence decisions before it was written.

The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the
first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese.

"10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act
of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully
prepared to accept the treat of war."

Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China.

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

Japanese is a very context sensitive language, one of the major
efforts of the translators was to take broken out code groups and
try and figure out the meaning of the groups, the code recovery work.

Think of it this way

11111 22222 33333 44444 11111 55555.

Now tell me the meaning.

How about

The 22222 33333 44444 the 55555.

We are reading 1/3 of the message folks.

Another clue.

The 22222 33333 on the 55555.

50% readable now, surely the text is obvious.

The cat 33333 on the 55555.

2/3 readable.

The cat sat on the 55555.

Think you can fill in the final word?

Of course the message "The cat 33333 on the 55555."
could be "The cat slept on the chair".

The translators did much more than translating decrypted documents.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to

Dropped in your dreams maybe?
Ok.Lets repeat events again
a)Yamamatos "target Pearl Harbor" message intercepted and decoded by US and
Brits on Nov.25 and by Dutch on Nov.27.

b)After intercepting and decoding "Target Pearl Harbor" mesage on Nov.25,US
issued so-called War Warning message on Nov.26 for locations thousands miles
away from Pearl Harbor,BUT NOT for Pearl Harbor,the name of target mentioned in
Yamamatos dispatch !!!!.)
(BTW the Naval Court of Inquiry that exonorated Kimmel found that so called War
Message directed attention away from Hawaii rather than toward to it and
exonarated Kimmel)

2)After receiving Yamamato's "Target Pearl Harbor" message US did not only try
to direct attention AWAY from Pearl Harbor by issuing so called War Warning,but
also ordered ALL allied shipping to take Southern course,creating a shipping
free sea lane for the passage of Japanase Task Force!.

2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.

Do you need the facts?
I can give you more than you bargained for,for example check out:
FOIA#F-1998-00977

3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted

Posted with Auto poster ?

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

Posted with Autoposter?

1) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.

You have outright lied here the famed McCollum memo IS the blueprint for FDRs
Japan policy and the date of McCollum memo is Oct.7,1940,so not after Pearl
Harbor like you have claimed.

Apparently you have run out of arguments to prove your case.

Heck I expected much better than that from you initially.

apanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

Again you are dodging questions about the most important blunder of Japanese in
WWII,by filling your posts with senseless crap.

Did Japanase continue to use old random JN25 code books for another two months
after introduction of "improved" JN25B version ?

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Strange,You seem to know eveything about US ,but seemingly nothing about a
system which is used by US for twenty years.
BTW methods for cracking JN-25 or its father US system were published in
various journals world wide in 1931.

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the wa

If you cannot dodge a question unfortunately you resort to lies.
Check out Grand Alliance,page 598.

"From the end of 1940,the Americans pierced the vital Japanase ciphers,and were
decoding large numbers of their MILITARY and diplomatic messages"

W.Churchill

A hint for you:When Japanase introduced JN25B ?

Greg Hennessy wrote in message ...
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:20:26 +1000, "Geoffrey Sinclair"
wrote:

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 4.

Killfile the equivocating loon, its easier.

Quite correct. On the other hand the replies almost fill in a lunch type
break and provide much laughter. I mean no one is really reading
the messages when they end up this deep, and Denyav does not have
a clue, which leaves a steady comedy show for little effort, think of
it as interactive comedy.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days."

Denyav wrote in message ...
apanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

deleted text,

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

Again you are dodging questions about the most important blunder of
Japanese in WWII,by filling your posts with senseless crap.

Lets see now, I have mentioned for quite some time the failure to
change additive books in December 1941.

Did Japanase continue to use old random JN25 code books for another
two months after introduction of "improved" JN25B version ?

Sigh, I keep telling you the additive book was not changed for the first
two months as for why you would have to ask the IJN, presumably an
administrative foul up.

Now tell us all how this meant the allies gained the complete code
book in 2 months. Not just a list of valid code groups.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Strange,You seem to know eveything about US ,but seemingly nothing about a
system which is used by US for twenty years.
BTW methods for cracking JN-25 or its father US system were published in
various journals world wide in 1931.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Oh yes, the fact there is said to be a theoretical way to crack a
system is supposed to equal the system was cracked, silly isn't it?

The idea the Japanese might improve the system is dismissed.

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the wa

If you cannot dodge a question unfortunately you resort to lies.

This is good, see the Churchill quote below.

Check out Grand Alliance,page 598.

"From the end of 1940, the Americans pierced the vital Japanase ciphers,
and were decoding large numbers of their MILITARY and diplomatic messages"

W.Churchill

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

A hint for you:When Japanase introduced JN25B ?

A hint for you, when did the USN report it had cracked JN-25A?
How about the "dockyard" code? The weather code? Some of
the IJNAF codes? When exactly did the IJN move exclusively to
using JN-25B for everything?

The rest is deleted text.

Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and
you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over.

The fact the posts have to be deleted is the best proof they are
accurate. Also the fleeing forward to new claims, not defending
the old junk. It seems we are going to be treated to the tour of the
various conspiracy claims, which goes to prove what Denyav is
when he can quote a character in the Pearl Harbor movie as a
source but also supply all the other conspiracy claims.

Since there are no sources for the following information can we assume
the nurse character in Pearl Harbor the movie is the source?

Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?

1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that
somehow apperared in 20th century.

Note by the way there is no source for this claim, note the fact the
1930's are not that far into the 20th century. Radio and telegraph
communications forced the development of coding systems.

The code groups were disguised with random numbers, it forced
the US into using machines to break the code, to try and discover
the random numbers by comparing hundreds of messages. The
code breakers indicated this was a hard thing to do.

2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for
Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure.

So why didn't the US simply drag out the US code books and use
them? Perhaps because the systems were different? Please
describe the US systems, how they worked.

3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure
number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code
book

Not quite, there were 33,333 valid code groups, in both the A and B
versions some were left blank for future expansion. In the B version
around 2/3 of the groups had a second meaning, giving around 55,000
valid meanings.

Random numbers were added to the code groups before transmission.

4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940.
But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months.

You forgot to mention the B version contained additional tables for
locations, date/time and positions, a super encypherment. These
tables were not broken out until mid 1942.

5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced
JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been
solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of
reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing
immediately.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies
cracked the code basically.

My cat has 4 legs and a tail my dog has 4 legs and a tail therefore
my dog is a cat. Simple sort of logic.

Put it to you thins way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely
cracked in December 1940.
They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted.

Yes folks this is the fun part of the lies.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys

Ah yes, the US and UK combining recoveries is simply turned into
they had the entire code and additive books.

So here we go with another basic lie. One of the problems to sort out
in early 1941 was when the US and UK had different values for valid
random numbers and meanings for valid code groups.

7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581
(acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages.

Yes folks, apparently these messages were all about Pearl Harbor.

Deleted text,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital
Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase
MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598

A more full version of the quote is,

"From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the
vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large
numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams. In
the secret American circles these were referred to as
'Magics'. The 'Magics' were repeated to us, but there
was an inevitable delay - sometimes of two or three
days - before we got them. We did not know therefore
at any given moment all that the President or Mr. Hull
knew. I make no complaint of this."

This is a favourite quote of the conspiracy crowd, it is supposed
to be Churchill confessing the code breakings they want. Apparently
putting the boot into the recently deceased FDR and also himself.

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 6.
Now we are into claims being simply recycled, so

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target.

Denyav wrote in message ...
the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to

deleted text,
"make Pearl Harbor the only target)"

Dropped in your dreams maybe?

No it is quite simple, the way the claims can never exist alongside
a reply pointing out their flaws, means the claims are dropped.

I am ignoring those who simply demand their word is holy writ.

deleted text to the next ""

"Yes folks, actually posting the text of War Warning messages, the
McCollum Memo and so on is hiding the facts. Remember the
absence of proof of a conspiracy is proof of two conspiracies,
the first one and the cover up.

By the way playing by my rules would require full replies, instead
of the sad attempts to erase the facts.

Apparently there is just enough time to spout the lies, but not to
defend them.

This is funny really, the original claim was the war warning message

"They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period."

Now the 180 degree turn to make it a blind for the commanders
in Hawaii."

Yes folks, just ignore the text of the message, the Hawaiian
commands were certainly not ordered to do nothing.

By the way the message is now mine, all mine, isn't that wonderful?
It needs to be made a non historical document it seems, and given
a new title as well, anything but deal with what it actually said.

The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army,

"Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese
Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future
action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If
hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that
Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not,
be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem
necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat
not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures
taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow
Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers. "

To the navy,

"Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in
an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is
expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An
amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra
Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment
of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You
will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the
tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts
have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A
similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district
and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo."

The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November.

Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army
in WWII, War in the Pacific series)

page 119,

"In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs
felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately.
Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to
the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan
were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a
surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on
Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th,
Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a
warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this
failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a
warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning,
considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama,
and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was
told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of
hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt
act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other
measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned
in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur,
each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian
population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War
Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and
Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm

has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem
the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands.

Ok.Lets repeat events again

Big lie time returns.

a)Yamamatos "target Pearl Harbor" message intercepted and decoded
by US and Brits on Nov.25 and by Dutch on Nov.27.

Deleted text,

"You mean the one the IJN couriered to the fleet in Hittokapu bay?
You see IJN custom was to send such orders by courier. Things
like making sure the rest of the IJN was not eavesdropping on
such sensitive information. After all any ship or shore station in
the fleet that picked up the message could take a look at the
contents and Yamamoto wanted it to be a secret operation.

The Nurse character in the Pearl Harbor movie told you right?

It is quite simple, when Denyav actually tries to put a source for the
claims up it is shot down, so we are left with claims with no proof."

b)After intercepting and decoding "Target Pearl Harbor" mesage on Nov.25,
US issued so-called War Warning message on Nov.26 for locations thousands
miles away from Pearl Harbor,BUT NOT for Pearl Harbor,the name of target
mentioned in Yamamatos dispatch !!!!.)

Deleted text,

"Yes folks, I suppose people are aware of what else happened on
26 November, the transmission of the US terms for negotiations
to the Japanese. In effect a restatement of the original US terms,
ones Japan had already said were unacceptable. The US was
also aware of the 29 November "Things are automatically going
to happen" deadline for negotiations to succeed in Japanese
terms.

Strange isn't it, the diplomats conclude negotiations are off, so
the time has come to send a war warning. Instead the great
conspiracy has to decide because they happened on the
same date they must be related.

Just forget the allies were not decoding JN-25 in November
1941, that the message in question was not radioed according
to the IJN, that intercepted messages from the Pacific came
to Washington via airmail and sea mail, but this message,
never radioed, never decoded, was decoded in real time and
sent to Washington in real time and in an instant the US
organised a cover up, for the people in the Pacific and Washington
and London and the Dutch."

By the way the IJN never used the words Pearl Harbor in a JN-25B
message, it had a geographic designator, remember AF = Midway
and the way the USN had to send the famous fresh water message
to remove doubts about what AF stood for? But do not worry about
this, just assume perfect US knowledge pre war and then they lose
it as soon as war is declared.

(BTW the Naval Court of Inquiry that exonorated Kimmel found that so called War
Message directed attention away from Hawaii rather than toward to it and
exonarated Kimmel)

How can this be known when the claim is the USN investigation has
been kept secret, or is that claim to be dropped, along with the
"Investigating themselves" claims as a reason to discredit the results
that are not liked?

2)After receiving Yamamato's "Target Pearl Harbor" message US did
not only try to direct attention AWAY from Pearl Harbor by issuing so
called War Warning,but also ordered ALL allied shipping to take
Southern course,creating a shipping free sea lane for the passage of
Japanase Task Force!.

yes folks, if FDR wore green socks on 26 November that is a signal.
Sneezing twice was the go code. Anything that happens on 26
November is to be considered proof of whatever is wanted proven.

By the way work out the sailing time from the US to the mid Pacific
and note if the US wanted to avoid interceptions the ban needed to
be in place before the IJN sailed. Also note the US did not control
all allied shipping, only US and there were Soviet freighters moving
between Siberia and the US west coast. So much for all shipping.

Above all ignore the fact that the direct route from the US to the
Philippines was dominated by Japanese airbases.

2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.

Do you need the facts?

Translation movie characters are on the way out for the moment,
writers of bad conspiracy theories are put in place.

I can give you more than you bargained for,for example check out:
FOIA#F-1998-00977

The claim attached to the above magic numbers, is

"CIA Director Allen Dulles told people that US was warned in
mid-November that the Japanese Fleet had sailed east past
Tokyo Bay and was going to attack Pearl Harbor. "

Note by the way the CIA is now a good guy source, since it is
apparently telling us what the conspiracy wants. This is used
by Mark Willey in his attempts to prove the conspiracy. Mark's
standard of proof has things like FDR assassinating Joe Kennedy,
based on a single sentence from Kennedy senior.

By the way if you are going to be silly enough to quote Mark Willey's
ideas of research I assume you subscribe to his claims the conspiracy
extended to trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway, that Pearl Harbor
never received any help in cracking JB-25B, they had to do it all by
themselves from scratch?

Quoting Mark Willey is a sign of desperation. You should see his
careful editing of documents.

3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted

Posted with Auto poster ?

3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

Posted with Autoposter?

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

1) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.

You have outright lied here the famed McCollum memo IS the blueprint for FDRs
Japan policy and the date of McCollum memo is Oct.7,1940,so not after Pearl
Harbor like you have claimed.

This is quite funny, it appears my posting the memo with the date
on it is telling lies about the date. McCollum memo below.

I will be interested to see where I have ever claimed the memo was
written post 7 December 1941.

My summary of the memo,

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

All of this had to be deleted, along with the fact the memo never made
it beyond McCollums boss. So claim dropped.

Apparently you have run out of arguments to prove your case.

Hey Denyav's delete key has broken.

Heck I expected much better than that from you initially.

Hey, I had to find something else to do this lunchtime, even with two
replies to put all the deleted text back into.

The rest is largely deleted text, just the key points this time, the amount of
text being ignored has grown too large.

I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the
memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white
house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to
make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR
saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with.

"Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940
Memorandum For The Directors
Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..."

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British
bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore."

The USN did not use British bases until after the war started.
There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it
ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading
for Malaya. So this never happened pre war.

By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement
had been signed in 1940 or earlier.

"B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities
and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)."

As for point A. Never happened pre war.

"C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang
Kai-shek."

30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the
British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more
aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787
aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would
have been a lot more aircraft for a start.

By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers,
70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers.

So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937
is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well?

How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese
side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939.

"D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western
Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore."

Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy
and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through.

"E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific."

There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the
memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide
to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some
in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out
of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number
available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941.

By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from
DANFS, according to my by hand counts.

11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41

7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35

So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present.

12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit

So the 12 submarine force is restored.

1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the
5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and
arrived at the end of 1940.

1940 Seawolf (autumn)

10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion
12/40 Shark

1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41
at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US)

11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin,
Swordfish, Skipjack

Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were
refitting on 8 December.

"F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in
the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands."

Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October,
the basing decision was on 1 May 1940.

"G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for
undue economic concessions, Particularly oil."

Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to
embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the
lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade
the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much
to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it.

"H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration
with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire."

Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch
to the embargo.

FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants
and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September
scrap iron was added to the list.

In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written
the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval
reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore.
Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well.

Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently
able to influence decisions before it was written.

The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the
first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese.

"10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act
of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully
prepared to accept the treat of war."

Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China.

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

Japanese is a very context sensitive language, one of the major
efforts of the translators was to take broken out code groups and
try and figure out the meaning of the groups, the code recovery work.

Think of it this way

11111 22222 33333 44444 11111 55555.

Now tell me the meaning.

How about

The 22222 33333 44444 the 55555.

We are reading 1/3 of the message folks.

Another clue.

The 22222 33333 on the 55555.

50% readable now, surely the text is obvious.

The cat 33333 on the 55555.

2/3 readable.

The cat sat on the 55555.

Think you can fill in the final word?

Of course the message "The cat 33333 on the 55555."
could be "The cat slept on the chair".

The translators did much more than translating decrypted documents.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:33:23 +1000, "Geoffrey Sinclair"
wrote:

Killfile the equivocating loon, its easier.

Quite correct. On the other hand the replies almost fill in a lunch type
break and provide much laughter. I mean no one is really reading
the messages when they end up this deep, and Denyav does not have
a clue, which leaves a steady comedy show for little effort, think of
it as interactive comedy.

Actually I enjoy it, and the demolition is instructive for considering
other conspiracy theorists. Provided you're happy to engage with a
troll, I don't think any harm is done. Except to the troll.

Gavin Bailey

--

Apply three phase AC 415V direct to MB. This work real good. How you know, you
ask? Simple, chip get real HOT. System not work, but no can tell from this.
Exactly same as before. Do it now. - Bart Kwan En