Newbie Qs on stalls and spins

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 at 09:43:22 in message
, Bob Gardner
wrote:

You will never experience a stall in a "commercial"
aircraft.

If you do you may not survive it.

Ref: Air Disaster Volume 3 by Macarthur Job
April 26. 1994 A300 Airbus flying from Yaipei to Nagoya in Japan.

On approach to land in clear conditions at night and fully configured
for landing it passed the outer marker. But 3nm from touch down it
briefly levelled off. Descent continued but at decreasing speed and nose
up pitch increased. At 1nm and 500ft to go engine power was increased,
then after a brief interval cut again.

Several seconds later power was increased again and it nosed up into a
steep climb. The crew called 'Going around' but the climb increase
sharply. It climber steeper and steeper with the speed falling and after
gaining 1500ft it stalled. The nose came up a bit after the stall but it
struck the ground very hard. Only 7 passengers survived out of 256.

It is easy to write the above bare facts, what happened required a lot
of pages to explain. It depended on not recognising what was happening,
misunderstanding whether or not the autopilot was engaged and a
misunderstanding of how the aircraft would respond with the autopilot
engaged. Except in Land and Go Around mode the auto pilot disconnects
when force is applied to the control column. In those modes the
autopilot reacts by changing the tail plane trim to cancel the crew
input. It seems the Go Around Lever may have been accidentally engaged.


--
David CL Francis

Sorry...the stick PUSHER reduces the angle of attack...the stick PULLER is
for overspeeds.

Bob Gardner

"Ramapriya" wrote in message
m...
I've seen that John Denker in his article advocating pilots to keep
practicing recoveries from stalls and spins at a safe altitude...
which prompts me to ask the following:

1. Since I don't think I've experienced a stall or spin before, is it
a nice sensation to experience as a passenger, or wouldn't one be able
to tell?

2. Is it ok for pilots to practice stalls and spins on commercial
passenger aircraft in mid-flight? I ask, since I don't think it's
happened on any flight I've flown so far - unless some pilot did it
without informing the passengers :\

Ramapriya

Every landing involves a stall. But that is not the same as a stall during
flight because you don't fall more than a few inches. You would not want to
do stalls with passengers in midflight unless you have talked about this
with your passenger. Spins are more dramatic, and I don't think it would be
wise to do them even if you have talked about it with your passenger.
Besides, spins are aerobatic maneuvers and you are required to have
parachutes unless you are doing it as part of a certificate or rating.


(Ramapriya) wrote in news:30a8759c.0411160734.89e24d5
@posting.google.com:

I've seen that John Denker in his article advocating pilots to keep
practicing recoveries from stalls and spins at a safe altitude...
which prompts me to ask the following:

1. Since I don't think I've experienced a stall or spin before, is it
a nice sensation to experience as a passenger, or wouldn't one be able
to tell?

2. Is it ok for pilots to practice stalls and spins on commercial
passenger aircraft in mid-flight? I ask, since I don't think it's
happened on any flight I've flown so far - unless some pilot did it
without informing the passengers :\

Ramapriya



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"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
7...
Every landing involves a stall.

No, not every landing does. In fact, preferably few do.

But that is not the same as a stall during
flight because you don't fall more than a few inches.

IMHO, it is generally poor technique to "fall" at all during a landing. One
exception is a short field landing where minimum airspeed is the highest
priority, even if it means a "firm" landing. There may be other exceptions,
but otherwise the landing should be a smooth, controlled descent with the
airplane still flying when the tires touch the pavement and vertical speed
as close to zero as possible.

Pete

I have to respectfully disagree. A short field landing is where you
plonk the airplane on the runway while it still has some flying speed.
If the airplane is slow enough, the landing impact will absorb enough
energy to prevent a bounce back into the air. On a normal landing, it is
quite possible to squeeze out every bit of excess airspeed in the flare.
When the airplane starts to descend despite the pilot's attempts is what
we normally consider as the onset of stall. Perhaps the word 'fall' is a
bit too strong for this situation because you are not falling more than
a few inches. If you are only inches above the runway, the vertical
speed will be virtually zero, and the touchdown should be smooth.
However, it is quite possible to land an airplane in flying speed as you
described as long as it is not too fast. I believe in this case you are
using the energy dissipation due to the touchdown to prevent the
airplane from bouncing back.




"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
7...
Every landing involves a stall.

No, not every landing does. In fact, preferably few do.

But that is not the same as a stall during
flight because you don't fall more than a few inches.

IMHO, it is generally poor technique to "fall" at all during a
landing. One exception is a short field landing where minimum
airspeed is the highest priority, even if it means a "firm" landing.
There may be other exceptions, but otherwise the landing should be a
smooth, controlled descent with the airplane still flying when the
tires touch the pavement and vertical speed as close to zero as
possible.

Pete





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"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
7...

I have to respectfully disagree. A short field landing is where you
plonk the airplane on the runway while it still has some flying speed.

Sorry...weren't you the guy who just today posted "every landing involves a
stall"?

Usenet's going to be just that much less fun if you picking apart your *own*
posts.

Anyway, to each their own regarding technique. However, with a nice steep
approach and low airspeed, you can have both minimum flying speed (or even a
stall), and still have a rapid flare with no float. It's all about keeping
your approach speed sufficiently slow.

Yes, if you fly your approach at 1.3 Vs0, a full stall landing will mean a
nice long float. But that's not the correct airspeed for a short field
landing.

Anyway, I take it you now agree with what was my main point: that it's NOT
true that "every landing involves a stall". Thank you for your cooperation.


Pete

OK OK... What I meant was, every normal landing (other than short field
techniques) would involve a stall. I guess I have to be more careful in
my choice of words :-)



"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
7...

I have to respectfully disagree. A short field landing is where you
plonk the airplane on the runway while it still has some flying
speed.

Sorry...weren't you the guy who just today posted "every landing
involves a stall"?

Usenet's going to be just that much less fun if you picking apart your
*own* posts.

Anyway, to each their own regarding technique. However, with a nice
steep approach and low airspeed, you can have both minimum flying
speed (or even a stall), and still have a rapid flare with no float.
It's all about keeping your approach speed sufficiently slow.

Yes, if you fly your approach at 1.3 Vs0, a full stall landing will
mean a nice long float. But that's not the correct airspeed for a
short field landing.

Anyway, I take it you now agree with what was my main point: that it's
NOT true that "every landing involves a stall". Thank you for your
cooperation.


Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:

IMHO, it is generally poor technique to "fall" at all during a landing. One
exception is a short field landing where minimum airspeed is the highest
priority, even if it means a "firm" landing.

And, even with a short field landing, my aircraft is not stalled when flown
properly. I am likely to have a high enough descent rate for it to be a "firm"
landing; however, if I time the last burst of throttle correctly, even that
won't be the case.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:


Peter Duniho wrote:

IMHO, it is generally poor technique to "fall" at all during a landing. One
exception is a short field landing where minimum airspeed is the highest
priority, even if it means a "firm" landing.


And, even with a short field landing, my aircraft is not stalled when flown
properly. I am likely to have a high enough descent rate for it to be a "firm"
landing; however, if I time the last burst of throttle correctly, even that
won't be the case.

When I want to wedge my 182 into a short space I fly the plane at about
45 mph indicated on very short final and land like a Navy pilot. No
real flare, just hold attitude and smash into the ground. Not enough
energy to bounce back in the air. Brakes semi-locked, pull the power,
stopped in 400 feet.

"Newps" wrote in message
...


G.R. Patterson III wrote:


Peter Duniho wrote:

IMHO, it is generally poor technique to "fall" at all during a landing.
One
exception is a short field landing where minimum airspeed is the highest
priority, even if it means a "firm" landing.


And, even with a short field landing, my aircraft is not stalled when
flown
properly. I am likely to have a high enough descent rate for it to be a
"firm"
landing; however, if I time the last burst of throttle correctly, even
that
won't be the case.

When I want to wedge my 182 into a short space I fly the plane at about 45
mph indicated on very short final and land like a Navy pilot. No real
flare, just hold attitude and smash into the ground. Not enough energy to
bounce back in the air. Brakes semi-locked, pull the power, stopped in
400 feet.

When I got my first taste of short field landings, I was too fast and too
flat which left me floating beyond the target.

I finally turned to my CFI and said..."Should I just be trying to catch a
"three wire?""

"EUREEKA!!!"

I pictured what an F/A18 looks like on short final and saw myself trapping
aboard the "USS Coolidge Muni" and nailed the next three just past the
runway end lights.

Used the same mental imagery on my checkride and planted that F-172 right on
the second runway centerline stripe...right where the DPE wanted it!

Jay Beckman
KCHD
PP-ASEL
Still nowhere to go but up!