"Cleared Straight-In Runway X; Report Y Miles Final"

you were at a position different from where you claim to be

Nope. I was at a position EXACTLY where I claimed to be. I was 5 miles
from the airport, and I WAS on final. Thus "5 Miles Final."

As I have attempted to point out numerous times, the real issue is: "Must
you be on the extended centerline to be on final?" You believe the answer
is "Yes." I belive that the answer is "No."

Aviation is funny like that. Do you slip with flaps? Do you climb initally
at Vx or Vy on takeoff? Do you power for altitude and pitch for airspeed
(or vice versa)? We can agree to disagree, but I think you are just as
wrong as you appear to believe I am.

Pete, please answer the following question: "Have you ever approached the
runway on the final leg of your pattern NOT on the extended centerline?"
Congratulations, Pete! You just flew what somebody called an "angled final"
in an earlier email.

I like the expression "angled final" in some ways. It accurately captures
my contention that ALL FINALS ARE ANGLED. The trivial case is, of course,
the final that just happens to be on the extended centerline (this would be
the 0 deg angle). Thus, since all finals are angled, "angled" is redundant.

Regards, Jim

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
[...]
In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this
particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct.

You are hilarious. By your own admission, you were at a position
different
from where you claim to be, and yet you still persist in thinking that a
bunch of other different statements make you right. You might want to
(re?)read the FAA's publications regarding the five hazardous attitudes.

Whatever...you're right, this is Usenet, and it takes all sorts. I just
hope I'm not around the next time you report your position. I prefer that
people claiming to be at a particular spot actually *be there*.

Pete

Thanks for your comments, Bill. You are able to express your point of view
clearly without resorting to the uncivil sentiments used by many others on
this forum.

In respect to my sources, I believe the opinions of a Class C "ATC
Procedures Specialist" at one of the business airports in Southern
California, in conjunction with the Tower Manager at the airport where the
supposed infraction took place trump any other source offered on this forum
thus far. Indeed, the regulations (FAR and Order 7110.65) are often less
than crystal-clear on sticky issues such as these (that's why the FAA
publishes a FAQ to explain the FAR; if only we had a FAQ to explain the FAQ
g). In short, both of these credentialed and informed gentlemen believe
that you do NOT have to be on the extended centerline to be on "final."
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I share their view.

As I've stated multiple times, I was approximately on the extended runway
centerline when a "textbook" base would turn into a final (~1/2 mile from
the numbers). Thus, I met the definition of the "Final Approach" you cite
below.

I understand your position on everything you've stated, however, perhaps
another example might illustrate my "common sense" point (as you put it).
At KSNA, the parallel runway 19L has a special approach procedure called out
in the AFD. Specifically, it requires all pilots to offset 15 degrees when
approaching the runway. Hence, properly flown, the pilot will never
intersect the extended centerline until in the flare. I've landed on this
runway literally thousands of times--have I never been on final? If not a
final, what would YOU call it?

Regards, Jim


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
You might wish to consider a different set of sources...

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Report" - Used to instruct pilots to
advise ATC of specified information; e,.g. "Report passing Hamilton VOR."

This is essentially what your controller said to you.

Again: from the Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Traffic Pattern": "Final
Approach" - A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline. The final approach normally extends from the base leg
to
the runway. An aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also
considered
to be on final approach.

IIRC, you stated that you were essentially flying straight to the numbers
from your present position (if it was someone else who said that, I
apologize). By even the most liberal reading of the above definitions this
procedure would be incorrect. You should be on the runway centerline when
you cross it's intersection with base.

Before proceeding, let's pick up one more definition from the
Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Straight-In Approach VFR" - Entry into the
traffic pattern by interception of the extended runway centerline (final
approach course) without executing any other portion of the traffic
pattern.

Let's take a look at a sentence from one of the above definitions: "An
aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also considered to be on
final
approach". I suppose many readings could be placed on this, but it's
meaning
is quite simple: If an aircraft is making a straight-in approach VFR, the
final approach leg is extended away from the runway from the intersection
with the base leg to the aircraft's position on the extended centerline.
All
it is doing is extending the length of the final approach.

So, to sum up:

Under any circumstances, when flying a straight-in approach VFR, the
aircraft should be on the extended runway centerline (obviously flying
runway heading) at the point where the runway extended centerline
intersects
with the base leg, unless otherwise instructed. Obviously, the exact
location of this intersection is somewhat nebulous, but most pilots should
be able to hit it fairly closely.

I noted "unless otherwise instructed"; here is the instruction: "'Cleared
Straight-in; Report X miles Final". The troublesome part seems to be:
"Report X miles Final". But if you put the deleted words back in the
meaning
is quite clear: "Report YOUR POSITION WHEN YOU ARE X miles OUT ON Final".
It
then becomes obvious that, in order to comply with the controller's
request,
you would need to be on the extended centerline five miles out.

That would be the absolute minimum distance at which you should intersect
the extended centerline.

But, a "common sense" reading of all of the relevant information gives the
impression that the intent of all of this is that when a pilot is cleared
"Straight-In VFR", he/she should fly as quickly as reasonable feasible to
the extended centerline, then begin flying the final approach.

Now, let's look at some of the other things you noted:

Regarding the IMPRECISE argument, don't you usually manage to put your
wheels PRECISELY on the top surface of the runway. Realistically,
tolerances
are a part of flying. But, in the instance at hand, you would probably
been
fine if your reported at six miles out. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to do
things a little early.

"Final is a general direction". No, final is the extended centerline of
the
runway.In fact, a land surveying crew could locate a point on that line
100
miles away from the airport. So, it comes down to the abilities of the
pilot
and the accuracy of his/her equipment.

"Final is a state of mind". No, final is a defined line coursed in a
specified direction. And I'm afraid your examples have no merit, primarily
because of familiarity. True, S-turns have you flying varying courses, but
your overall direction of flight is along the extended centerline. Most
everyone involved is aware of wake turbulence, of the offset method for
avoiding it, and the controller will generally know what type of aircraft
is
ahead of you, which would provide a justification for your offset course.
Everyone is aware of gusts and slips. You aren't making a very good
argument
on this.

I hope you are able to get this resolved...





"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Okay, I'll give it one more go. Like many of you, I am fascinated by
this
passion for flight that occupies many of our souls. I started this
thread
to present a real-world flying example that I thought some of you would
find
interesting. Judging by the many different perspectives presented, many
of
you seem quite engaged by the topic. Initially, I also hoped to learn
something, and share a possible flying error that I thought I may have
committed, so that others could potentially learn something. And, yes,
I
am
an ATP/CFII who's very lucky to be able to fly an aerobatic,
high-performance, complex, taildragger from Mexico to Canada--and
everywhere
in between. I'm fairly experienced, but that doesn't mean that I don't
make
constant mistakes while flying (like all of you).

Of course, USENET has its limitations (not the least of which is having
to
occasionally come into contact with rude, over-bearing people who insist
on
making presumptuous personal attacks in their zeal to convince people
how
much smarter they are than anyone else). I won't engage in similar
behavior, but I think everyone knows the individuals I'm talking about.
For
those of you who have approached this topic professionally, without
resorting to such uncivil conduct, I thank you for your insights and
thoughts. I'm always amazed at how the relative anonymity of the
Internet
compels people to make the most absurd and offensive comments about
complete
strangers. During my 20 years in the Marine Corps, such communication
in
public would often end up with the offending individual picking his
teeth
off the bar-room floor.

In between all the nasty comments and boorish behavior, I still think
there's a lot of valuable learning going on, so I'll persist. I think
I've
been able to finally resolve the issue I originally presented (at least
in
my mind).

Here's what I learned thus far, and how:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting
things:

(1) The expression "Report 5 miles final" is not an instruction. It
is
not standard phraseology, and thus it is merely a request. Hence, there
was
no legal obligation to even comply with the request (certainly there was
no
violation of the FARs as some of you seem to believe). Moreover, Doug
believes there is never a requirement to fly to a precise spot on the
extended centerline during a VFR final approach (as some of you so
passionately have stated repeatedly)--regardless of whether the
controller
makes this "Report X miles Final" REQUEST.

(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the
centerline
at
any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME point to
land
the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile from the
numbers).

I then called KPRC, and spoke to a very cordial gentlemen named Mr. Paul
Wirdsky (sp?), who is assigned as the Tower Manager. He is the
supervisor
of the controller who precipitated this thread. After listening to my
account, he stated the following:

(1) He believes his controller clearly made a mistake, and that there
is
no obligation for a pilot to intercept the centerline precisely at any
particular point. In his view, flying directly towards the airport as I
did, and aligning with the runway at about 1/2 NM before landing, was
the
proper and correct thing to do.

(2) He is reviewing the tape, and will counsel the controller on her
well-intended but poorly-delivered "correction" of a pilot when the
controller mistakenly applied her own personal misinterpretation of the
regulations.

These guys seem fairly definitive to me. Oops, sorry--this is USENET.
I
know some of you still will never accept their well-informed opinions,
so
let me offer some additional ideas for you to think about (so perhaps
logic
will prevail where expert opinion does not).

In reference to the following definition:

STRAIGHT-IN APPROACH VFR- Entry into the traffic pattern by interception
of
the extended runway centerline (final approach course) without executing
any
other portion of the traffic pattern.

There is nothing in this definition that suggests the pilot must
intercept
the extended runway centerline at any particular point (rather it simply
must be intercepted at SOME point). Consequently, the real issue I
posed
is
whether one can be "on final" without being precisely on the extended
centerline. I believe you obviously can. Here's some specific themes
on
the topic:

(1) Flying is inherently IMPRECISE. Specifically, nobody flies on or
intercepts an extended centerline PRECISELY. No one. Not on an ILS,
not
visually, not ever. If the FAR and PTS standard was "The Applicant must
intercept the extended centerline at precisely the distance instructed
by
the controller to report on final," not one of us would have our
tickets.
So, what's an acceptable level of precision? I asked this question
before,
but none of the naysayers seemed to respond. If I HAVE to fly to the
extended centerline at precisely 5NM, how far can I be off and not
violate
the FARs? 1 foot? 10 feet? 1/4 mile? BTW, how does even one FIND this
precise position without reference to a GPS? Even if I have a GPS, do
we
measure from the numbers, the touchdown zone, or the Airport Reference
Point
(ARP)? Clearly, trying to apply this level of precision when flying VFR
at
150 kts is ridiculous. I think a better standard might be the one posed
by
the ATC Procedures Specialist above where "every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline complies with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction."

(2) "Final" is a general direction. I can approach any airport from any
one
of 360 possible angles (in whole degrees). Thus, the odds are 1/360
that
the direction I am approaching from is precisely aligned with the runway
centerline. The question you should ask yourself is what maximum number
of
degrees you would be comfortable being offset from the centerline so
that
you would call it a final approach? 0.1 deg? 1 deg? 10 degs? 30
degs?
45 degs? In other words, don't think of final as ONE specific heading,
but
a SET of headings all generally aligned towards the runway. A downwind
and
base leg should similarly be defined in terms of a GENERAL
direction--not
a
specific and precise line.

(3) "Final" is a state of mind. If I MUST be on the extended centerline
to
be on "final" (a statement which many of you have made), how do you
account
for S-Turns? How do you justify deliberately off-setting for wake
turbulence? When a gust knocks me off the centerline, am I no longer on
final? If I slip it in without once being on the centerline (until the
flare), did I just make an approach "without flying a final?" Please.

BTW, since many of you asked: There was no traffic within the Class D
airspace known to me--certainly none in my view, and the control
frequency
was not used at any time between my initial check-in, and my "5 Mile
Final"
report. FWIW, I also learned that the KPRC Tower has radar.

In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this
particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct. I would do
the
exact same thing next time, and I encourage my fellow pilots to consider
doing the same. That said, there's certainly nothing WRONG with
offsetting
to intercept the extended centerline at an extended distance from the
airport in order to get more time to get setup for the landing, etc.
(just
a
little circuitous for my tastes--as well as potentially dangerous or
impracticable in some situations when considering terrain, etc.). Of
course, many of you will find gross fault with the above, while
continuing
to nit-pick, argue about punctuation, and throw wildly uninformed
accusations about the competency of myself and the ATC folks I've cited
above. Ahhh, USENET. Recommend everyone try to get a little less
keyboard
time, and a whole lot more stick time. Thanks!

Fair winds,

Jim

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Hi, all. Ran into this one flying back from KOSH a couple weeks ago:

I check in with the KPRC controller "20 Miles NE" of Love Field in
Prescott,
AZ. She clears me with "Cleared Straight-in Runway 21L, Report 5
miles
final."

I fly directly towards the numbers. My heading was approximately 240
(hence, I'm ~30 deg off of the extended centerline).

At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I
report
"5
mile final." She questions my position and gets all snippy (indeed,
darn
right rude) that I am "not on final" since I am not on the extended
centerline. She patronizingly cautions me to be "careful about this."

Hence, the question is "What does 'Cleared Straight-in; Report X miles
Final" really mean?" Is it. . . .

(1) You must fly directly from your current position to a point on
the
extended centerline that is X miles from the numbers, and then report
(sounds like a base to me).

or

(2) You can fly directly from your current position to the numbers
(thus
"straight-in"), and report when you are X miles away.

I obviously vote for #2, but the controller clearly thought otherwise
(it
seems to me that if 30 deg = "straight-in" in the IFR domain, it ought
to
work well enough for VFR situations). Regardless, it is potentially
dangerous when controllers and pilots define things differently.
Which
definition is right?

Regards, Jim

He's wrong.

Thank you for that insightful comment, G.R. BTW, would you be willing to
share with us your credentials in making your definitive pronouncement?
These guys are ATC professionals (who picked up the phone when I called the
respective towers--unlike the dubious source of much of the "expert"
commentary I see on this forum).

Frankly, I would be more inclined to believe them in contrast to some of the
wannabes who believe access to a digital copy of the FARs and Order 7110.65
is all it takes to interpret the gray areas of aviation.

Regards, Jim

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Jim Cummiskey wrote:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting
things:

He's wrong.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Thanks, Steve--you've made some good points. Interestingly, Doug quoted the
exact paragraph, 3-10-1.g, to illustrate his point that it WASN'T standard
phraseology. I think you have presented yourself as a working Tower ATC.
If you don't mind, what class of Tower do you work at? Are you a
"Procedures Specialist?" What's your contact information? Not that I'm
questioning you, but unfortunately, ATC doesn't have the same public-access
database we can use to validate someone's expertise. I also know ATC has
various levels of assignment, competency and experience (as obviously do
pilots). Could you please describe yours for the group so we can assess
your relative credibility to Doug and Paul?

As I said in a previous post, I am not a member of ATC, and I certainly
cannot speak definitively as to the rationale behind a particular
controller's position, but I can cite what that controller told me. As you
know, there is a lot of incertainty in regulations. For example, I've
learned long ago that one should never call two FSDOs if you want to get a
single answer to any complex question g. Indeed, as an illustration
another controller on this forum, "Newps," appears to agree 100% with the
position of Doug, Paul, and myself (put simply, "One need not be on the
extended centerline to be "on final."). Newps, care to weigh in here and
address Steve's issues?

Steve, I would recommend you contact Doug and Paul directly (I will supply
their contact info directly to you if desired). Perhaps you three could
work it out and share what you discover with the pilots on this forum. It
is distressing to me (although not unexpected) that something so fundamental
as the question "Must a final approach be on the extended centerline to be
considered a final?," is generating such confusion--especially in the ATC
community. Let's work to get this resolved.

Now to answer some of your specific questions:

What regulation do you believe she misinterpreted?

Recommend you call Paul and ask him--he said it, not me.

You wrote, "At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the
centerline), I report '5 mile final'." How did you measure your distance
then?

GPS in this case. The 5 miles I reported was accurate. The issue is
whether I was "on final."

Do you consider yourself aligned with the runway when your nose is cocked
30 degrees from the centerline?

Mabye. There is something called crab g.

Which means you haven't learned a thing from this discussion. So what
then was your purpose in starting this thread?

Well, please re-read my message again for my purpose. And, if you're
implying that I can learn something ONLY if I agree with YOU, you're
mistaken. Dare I say you might be able to learn something too? Gosh, how
impudent of me.

Regards, Jim


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...

Here's what I learned thus far, and how:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting
things:

(1) The expression "Report 5 miles final" is not an instruction.


Yes it is.



It is not standard phraseology, and thus it is merely a request. Hence,
there was no legal obligation to even comply with the request (certainly
there was no violation of the FARs as some of you seem to believe).
Moreover, Doug believes there is never a requirement to fly to a precise
spot on the extended centerline during a VFR final approach (as some
of you so passionately have stated repeatedly)--regardless of whether
the
controller makes this "Report X miles Final" REQUEST.


Doug is wrong.

"Report 5 miles final" IS standard phraseology. From the Pilot/Controller
Glossary:

REPORT- Used to instruct pilots to advise ATC of specified information;
e.g., "Report passing Hamilton VOR."

FAA Order 7110.65 tells controllers that legs of the traffic pattern are
valid reporting points. See para 3-10-1.g. below:


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 3. Airport Traffic Control-- Terminal

Section 10. Arrival Procedures and Separation

3-10-1. LANDING INFORMATION

Provide current landing information, as appropriate, to arriving
aircraft. Landing information contained in the ATIS broadcast may be
omitted
if the pilot states the appropriate ATIS code. Runway, wind, and altimeter
may be omitted if a pilot uses the phrase "have numbers." Issue landing
information by including the following:

NOTE-
Pilot use of "have numbers" does not indicate receipt of the ATIS
broadcast.

a. Specific traffic pattern information (may be omitted if the
aircraft is to circle the airport to the left).

PHRASEOLOGY-
ENTER LEFT/RIGHT BASE.

STRAIGHT-IN.

MAKE STRAIGHT-IN.

STRAIGHT-IN APPROVED.

RIGHT TRAFFIC.

MAKE RIGHT TRAFFIC.

RIGHT TRAFFIC APPROVED. CONTINUE.

b. Runway in use.

c. Surface wind.

d. Altimeter setting.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Current Settings, Para 2-7-1.

e. Any supplementary information.

f. Clearance to land.

g. Requests for additional position reports. Use prominent
geographical fixes which can be easily recognized from the air, preferably
those depicted on sectional charts. This does not preclude the use of the
legs of the traffic pattern as reporting points.

NOTE-
At some locations, VFR checkpoints are depicted on sectional
aeronautical and terminal area charts. In selecting geographical fixes,
depicted VFR checkpoints are preferred unless the pilot exhibits a
familiarity with the local area.

h. Ceiling and visibility if either is below basic VFR minima.

i. Low level wind shear or microburst advisories when available.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Low Level Wind Shear/Microburst Advisories, Para
3-1-8.

j. Issue braking action for the runway in use as received from
pilots or the airport management when Braking Action Advisories are in
effect.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Braking Action Advisories, Para 3-3-5.



(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the
centerline
at any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME
point to land the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile
from
the numbers).


FAA Order 7110.65 prescribes air traffic control procedures and
phraseology
for use by persons providing air traffic control services in the US. Doug
and others at his airport are not in a position to redefine those
procedures
and phraseology as they see fit. "Report", "Final", and "Straight in
Approach" are all defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary, which is an
addendum to FAA Order 7110.65.



I then called KPRC, and spoke to a very cordial gentlemen named Mr. Paul
Wirdsky (sp?), who is assigned as the Tower Manager. He is the
supervisor
of the controller who precipitated this thread. After listening to my
account, he stated the following:

(1) He believes his controller clearly made a mistake, and that there
is no obligation for a pilot to intercept the centerline precisely at
any
particular point. In his view, flying directly towards the airport as I
did, and aligning with the runway at about 1/2 NM before landing, was
the
proper and correct thing to do.



There is an obligation for a pilot to adhere to valid ATC instructions,
you'll find it in FAR 91.123(b). While the instruction to report a five
mile final may or may not have been necessary in this case, it was without
question a valid instruction and you were bound by regulation to comply
with
it.



(2) He is reviewing the tape, and will counsel the controller on her
well-intended but poorly-delivered "correction" of a pilot when the
controller mistakenly applied her own personal misinterpretation of the
regulations.


What regulation do you believe she misinterpreted?

The controller erred when she said "Cleared Straight-in Runway 21L". You
were a VFR arrival to an airport in Class D airspace, the only clearance
needed is a clearance to land.



These guys seem fairly definitive to me. Oops, sorry--this is USENET.
I
know some of you still will never accept their well-informed opinions,
so
let me offer some additional ideas for you to think about (so perhaps
logic will prevail where expert opinion does not).


FAA Order 7110.65 is definitive. Those guys are taking positions contrary
to that order, that makes them wrong.



In reference to the following definition:

STRAIGHT-IN APPROACH VFR- Entry into the traffic pattern by
interception of the extended runway centerline (final approach course)
without executing any other portion of the traffic pattern.

There is nothing in this definition that suggests the pilot must
intercept
the extended runway centerline at any particular point (rather it simply
must be intercepted at SOME point).


And the point specified by the controller was a five mile final, therefore
you were required to intercept the extended centerline at a point not
closer
than five miles.



Consequently, the real issue I posed is whether one can be "on final"
without being precisely on the extended centerline. I believe you
obviously can. Here's some specific themes on the topic:

(1) Flying is inherently IMPRECISE. Specifically, nobody flies on or
intercepts an extended centerline PRECISELY. No one. Not on an ILS,
not visually, not ever.


Do you consider yourself aligned with the runway when your nose is cocked
30
degrees from the centerline?



If the FAR and PTS standard was "The Applicant must
intercept the extended centerline at precisely the distance instructed
by
the controller to report on final," not one of us would have our
tickets.
So, what's an acceptable level of precision? I asked this question
before,
but none of the naysayers seemed to respond. If I HAVE to fly to the
extended centerline at precisely 5NM, how far can I be off and not
violate
the FARs? 1 foot? 10 feet? 1/4 mile? BTW, how does even one FIND
this precise position without reference to a GPS? Even if I have a GPS,
do we measure from the numbers, the touchdown zone, or the Airport
Reference Point (ARP)? Clearly, trying to apply this level of precision
when flying VFR at 150 kts is ridiculous.


You wrote, "At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the
centerline),
I report '5 mile final'." How did you measure your distance then?
Heretofore there's been no suggestion that your distance was incorrect,
it's
just that you were not aligned with the runway.



I think a better standard might be the one posed by the ATC
Procedures Specialist above where "every approach within a 45
degree cone of the centerline complies with the "Make Straight In,
Runway X" instruction."


He was wrong.



(2) "Final" is a general direction.


"Final" for any given runway is specific.



FWIW, I also learned that the KPRC Tower has radar.


But they don't have radar on the field. They have a feed from an
Albuquerque Center radar site, probably Phoenix, which is fifty miles
away.
You wouldn't necessarily have been depicted by the radar.



In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this
particular situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct.


Well, if there was no other traffic it was likely safe, but without
question
it was illegal, unjustifiable, and 100% wrong.



I would do the exact same thing next time, and I encourage my fellow
pilots to consider doing the same.


Which means you haven't learned a thing from this discussion. So what
then
was your purpose in starting this thread?

"Bill Denton" wrote


I hope you are able to get this resolved...

Jim will never get it resolved, but one way; his way. He is right, and if
you don't believe that, just ask him.

I'm glad that he feels comfortable with the criteria for flight he has
chosen. I only hope that I am never in the same portion of big sky that he
is in.
--
Jim in NC


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Thank you, John. You and G.R. Patterson are clearly contributing at the
same level. Again, I apologize for even implying that there might be
something about aviation you don't know.

Please read my last long post again and ask yourself, "Gee, I wonder what
group of USENET users Jim thinks I'm in?"

Since you felt once again to express yourself in such negative way, please
allow me to respond to your earlier emails:

Jim, you asked the question, and received many answers from people with
far
broader experience than your own, the preponderance of which disagreed
with
your opinion. These you refuse to accept. So be it.

Oh really? Actually, I think the experience metric might be in my favor for
the vast majority of the folk on this forum, Doc. What are you flying, BTW?
You've just aptly demonstrated the old line about the dangers of ASSUME'ing.
And, yes--the preponderance of people did seem to disagree with my opinion
on this controversial issue. Did it bother you at all that a few people
DIDN'T (including at least three another ATC controllers)? Did it concern
you that the question is even coming up? Instead of INSISTING that your
perspective is the only possible conclusion, have you bothered to really
read everyone's posts, and reexamine your preconceived notions about what's
right and wrong? Your rigidness and lack of mobility in your thinking is
distressing for someone who is positioning themselves as an Oracle of
Aviation. I least I had the stones to announce: "There is something about
aviation I may not know." I'm not sure people like you can even understand
that (instead, you ASSUME--there's that word again--that the only reason I
would make my initial post is to agitate all you Vanguards of Aviation
Proficiency) and then have the TEMERITY to not agree with your conclusions
while prostrate with thankfulness. Get a grip.

Try thinking of yourself as one of many many pilots who make up the entire
aviation system, instead of one pilot with an inviolable right to fly
wherever, whenever. You also ought to rethink this idea you seem to have
that you can interpret the regs as you see fit. Things will be smoother.

The regs ARE confusing, imprecise, and often contradictory. They need
interpretation badly. What is it about this you don't understand? What YOU
seem to be missing is that there are very few right and wrong answers in
aviation--especially in the regulatory domain. It's a very fluid,
convoluted, and chaotic environment. We need to get all the IQ points in
the game to try to figure out answers to the myriad of questions still out
there--for both experienced and novice pilots and controllers alike.
Questions like "Do you have to be on the extended centerline to be
considered 'on final'?" Things will be SMOOTHER if you admit and understand
this. Join the discussion with an open mind; share your ideas; but please
drop the attitude of "My way or the highway." It doesn't play in Peoria.

You strike me as a very smart amateur who just loves to second guess and
think to death little perceived cracks in the regulatory structure -- the
kind of person who gave rise years ago to all the old jokes about Doctors
and Bonanzas.

They aren't PERCEIVED cracks--they ARE cracks (with more than our fair share
of CRACKPOTs who insist on blindly enforcing a confusing disarray of
regulations without considering common sense and the requirements of
real-world flying). The comically pseudo-precise nature of the FARs is
evident to all (e.g., you can't fly unless you get "all available
information."). It is human nature that the strict engineering-types among
us LOVE the FARs (you know the kind--the guys with no people skills who
believe that everything in life has a precise set of rules, and that these
rules MUST be followed unerring without question or ALL IS LOST!). WRONG!
Life is analog, not digital, John. There is no right and wrong. All rules
and laws merely offer a set of guidelines to be used as a general model for
our behavior. Human beings make laws. Human beings are not infallible.

Proficient pilots understand and comply with the FARs, because generally
they make sense--but NEVER at the expense of interpreting them in a COMMON
SENSE way. For example, "Make Straight-in Runway X" translates to me as
"Fly direct to the airport, align yourself with the runway at a safe
distance, and land." "Report X Miles Final" translates to "Tell me when
you're five miles away from landing on your final leg to the airport." The
conjoined meaning of these two sentences DOES NOT translate to "AND THOU
SHALL GET ON THE EXTENDED CENTERLINE AT X MILES." I understand there are
many on this forum who feel otherwise (but their OPINION is not shared by an
experienced ATC Procedures Specialist, as well as the Tower Manager of the
airport in question). If it's good enough for these guys, why isn't it good
enough for you, John? Does it make you NERVOUS that one of your most
preciously-held views of the world is being challenged? That your strict
(some might say "anal-retentive") interpretation of the FARs might be OPEN
TO QUESTION? Gosh, that must be a scary feeling for you.

Later when Larry Dighera (BTW, thanks, Larry--nice hearing from you again)
gave you some more insight into my background to refute your judgemental and
offensive commentary above, you were gracious enough to apologize.

Your descriptive above exactly applies to the type of accomplished
professionals in other fields (such as physicians, or programmers) who may
well think themselves smarter than the aviation system. However, your
fine
personal commendation would outweigh what may be my misinterpretation of
the
simple printed word. If I have done so I apologize to Mr. Cumminsky.

John, I accept your apology (albeit with your veiled dig at your perceptions
of my professional community, I understood the shallowness of your
contrition). But, then you went and spoiled this "apology" with yet another
one of your non-contributory posts. Moreover, your comment about those
that "think themselves smarter than the aviation system" disturbs me. John,
I AM the aviation system (certainly, a small part of it). The "Aviation
System" is NOT merely the confusing tomes of regulations that the FAA and
other organizations produce for our mutual bewilderment. Rather, it is the
sum total of ALL the people involved--how they feel about things, and they
way they approach their respecitive responsibilities in the system. ACTIVE
controllers and pilots are the main players in the dance (BTW, how many
hours have you logged in the last year, Doc)? I encourage you to read the
thread a few more times, and reevaluate your position. I welcome your input
on this sticky issue and am willing to respect you as a fellow professional,
but only if you are willing to accord me the same priviledge.

Now, I'm going to take my own advice ("less keyboard time, more stick
time"), change my airplane's oil and go flying in beautiful SoCal.

Fair winds,

Regards, Jim

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message

...I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct.

I never doubted for a moment that this would be your conclusion, Doc.

you were at a position different from where you claim to be

Nope. I was at a position EXACTLY where I claimed to be. I was 5 miles
from the airport, and I WAS on final. Thus "5 Miles Final."

As I have attempted to point out numerous times, the real issue is: "Must
you be on the extended centerline to be on final?" You believe the answer
is "Yes." I belive that the answer is "No."

I suspect this could go on for a long time, but legalities aside, does anyone
disagree with the notion that "5 mile final" position report would by most of
us suggest that somewhere mainly along the extended centerline of the runway is
where we'd probably see traffic?

I respectfully submit that as pilots we get in the habit of making position
reports -- at controlled airports or not -- so as to help other airplanes FIND
THE DAMNED TRAFFIC!!!

Thank you for your consideration.

GB, the 45 degree cone Doug was referring to encompassed both sides of the
extended centerline.

Imagine a large X and Y axis superimposed on any airport (with the X-axis
aligned with the runway centerline). There are thus four quadrants. If at
any time I am moving in respect to the airport in one of those quadrants, I
will either be in a "downwind" general direction, a "base" direction, a
"final/upwind" direction, and a "crosswind" direction. The "Final/Upwind"
direction represents the domain of what consitutes a "final" in my way of
thinking (which appears to be shared by at least three ATC controllers).

If you approach an airport at 30 degrees off the extended centerline
(something that I'm sure most of you have done thousands of times--as I
have), what leg are you flying?

Regards, Jim

"Flydive" wrote in message
...
Jim Cummiskey wrote:


(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the
centerline at
any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME point to
land
the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile from the
numbers).


Well if you were approaching with a 30 degrees angle you were in a 60
degrees cone, outside Doug's definition.

GB

Gee, thanks Jim--another superb retort by the "The Final is a Single Degree"
crowd. Gosh, your Blues-Angel-like proficiency is scary, intimidating, and
thrilling (all at once). It gives me goosepimples!

Jim will never get it resolved, but one way; his way. He is right, and if
you don't believe that, just ask him.

No, ATC Doug, ATC Paul, and ATC Newps are also right. I happen to agree
with them.

Regards, Jim

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Bill Denton" wrote


I hope you are able to get this resolved...

Jim will never get it resolved, but one way; his way. He is right, and if
you don't believe that, just ask him.

I'm glad that he feels comfortable with the criteria for flight he has
chosen. I only hope that I am never in the same portion of big sky that
he
is in.
--
Jim in NC


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IMO, you don't have to be an "expert" on interpreting the FARs ... the input,
expert or not, of everyone who flies is important on this one. Obviously, we
should always be scanning everywhere, but there *are* specific areas where
majority of us *initially* look for traffic said to be in various stages of the
traffic pattern, i.e., *on the extended runway centerline* for other "traffic
on straight-in final", and it's important to your own safety and the safety of
others that you *are* there when your position is announced, either by yourself
or by an ATC.

The issue isn't who is "right" or "wrong", but rather the arrogant,
disappointing attitude that being "right" makes it okay to put yourself in a
spot where you **KNOW** other pilots won't expect you to be if you are
instructed to make "straight-in" final. The ATC thought it was enough of a
concern to call it to your attention ... instead of understanding and
acknowledging WHY she felt it was important to do so, you are ticked-off that
she mentioned it, concerned about not being "wrong", and playing semantics with
the arguments. If this isn't just a great exercise in trolling, I hope, for the
safety of everyone who shares the sky with you, that you get over it soon.