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Kawa rough landing?



 
 
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  #91  
Old September 21st 19, 04:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

wrote on 9/19/2019 4:07 AM:
2g to answer your question, I can recover from a 1/2 turn spin within 150ft but my response has to be instinctive and instantaneous, which it has gotten thru lots of practice.
You never answered my querry, when is the last time you practiced spins, spin entry, and recovery? Do you intimately know the subtleties of your birds behavior when super slow? Whens the last time you've taken 10 pattern tows and seen how steep you can approach a landing spot and stop short? Do you know how short you can stop? Do you practice very very minimum energy landings to be able to fly the ragged edges of control when you really need to?

These are things every xc pilot should do yearly and definitely when in a new bird.


I disagree. Your level of commitment to landing skills is impressive but not
necessary for safe cross-country flying. I manage my risk by keeping safe landing
places (ie, airports or fields I can easily land in) within easy reach, so I avoid
the need to have such superior landing skills. I also fly a glider with "superior
landing skills" (ASH26E, previously an ASW20C) and the majority of my flying is in
benign areas; when it isn't, I raise my margins to compensate for the difficult area.

For practice, I occasionally do coordinated turns, slowing until a wing drops; and
before every landing, I choose the approach speed, aim , touch down, and stopping
point. Most are standard patterns begun at 1000' agl on downwind, but I mix it up
with lower or shorter patterns, and "expedited arrivals".

The above has worked well for 40+ years (and 1000's of hours) of flying. Staying
safe is almost entirely a matter of operating within your limits, rather than
being highly skilled.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #92  
Old September 21st 19, 05:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

Andreas Maurer wrote on 9/19/2019 12:11 PM:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:16:31 -0700, Eric Greenwell
wrote:


I've never had anyone flying the usual PIK, DG, ASH, and Ventus self-launchers
mention plummeting or reduced control authority to me, but I'm sure there must be
some like that. What gliders have this plummet/control authority problem, and how
bad is the plummet (same as half spoiler, full spoiler, etc), and reduction in
control?


Arcus M - you ought to be able to find a operating handbook online.
WIth extended power plant the L/D decreases to 13/1 and minimum sink
rate to 443 fpm.

So far I've seen two DG-400s crash that were trying to land with
extended power plant and didn't reach the runway.


That's one, perhaps, but 443 fpm doesn't seem like "plummeting" to me. I'm
surprised it's so poor mast up, as I've read the PIK20E is 15:1 with the mast up,
and that's only a 15 meter glider with the engine on the mast, unlike the buried
engine in the Arcus M. How does mast up compare to half or full spoiler, and is
that measured with the gear down?

Here's another data point: the last time I flew my ASH26E, I stopped the engine
while thermalling, but did not lower the mast. The glider continued to climb at a
reduced rate in the thermal. Note that the mast is always left half extended to
cool for several minutes after an engine run, and the thermal climb is not
noticeably improved when the mast is finally fully retracted. So, NO plummet mode
on the 26E, and really don't think it's that much different from an 18 M Ventus or DG.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
  #93  
Old September 21st 19, 06:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

Eric, thanks for the response. While you have been flying relatively high performance machines, I have chosen to go a different route. The challenge for me is doing more with less. I fly a very low performance bird and have been pursuing the goal of setting records and making long distance flights in a 22/1 L/D machine.

To successfully do this type of flying requires a completely different set of soaring skills than the ones you use. Namely, I have to become "comfortable" with multiple low saves on virtually every record flight due to the fact that I do not have the lift-finding-reach that comes with higher performance. As a direct corrolary, I have to also become very proficient in the evaluation and utilization of every available scrap of landable terrain. I don't have the luxury of many others who have the "wing power" to cross large tracts of ground considered unlamdable. For me to reach my goals, I have to intimately know the skills I mentioned previously.

While my situation would be considered extreme by many, it is not. It is simply returning to the type of flying that the soaring pioneers of the 50's and 60's did. But now it can be done with the benefits of modern "high performance" electronic aids such as flight computers, gps, active real time wx, and active tracking, all of which increase the safety and efficiency factors to points our pioneers could only have dreamt of.

All that being said, the skills and the repetitous practice needed to gain those skills (things the successfull pioneers all had) are things that, in my oinion, need to be brought back into vogue. In todays day and age, there is entirely too much dependance upon performance and motorized aid to save a fellow. Proof of this is clearly seen in the rash of fatalities we are seeing.

It is well, necessary, and good to have personal risk standards. I also have them. But what does one do when they find themselves in a pinch, when they find that they have inadvertantly put their tail in a crack. This is what is happening. Sure there are probably a few guys who are simply flying hell bent for leather and as a consequence getting themselves killed. But I think the vast majority of the fatalities and serious injury accidents we are seen are more of the former case, where guys are simply slightly over extended, and finding themselves in a predicament, have no idea how to handle it.
  #94  
Old September 21st 19, 10:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default Kawa rough landing?

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:57:12 AM UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Staying
safe is almost entirely a matter of operating within your limits, rather than
being highly skilled.


This is so true. Another truth is that pilots peak at their flying skills pretty early. I'm mid-forties and already accepted that my reaction time, memory, capability to observe things, flying string centered all them time etc. are all past prime, even when flying steady 100-200 hrs every single year. Skill of pilot DOES NOT cumulate over decades. All you can improve is the judgement and that includes recognizing that you could outland to a dime 20 years ago after engine failing to start, and cannot do it anymore.
  #95  
Old September 21st 19, 02:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

The main reason motorgliders like the Arcus see such a large decrease in performance with the mast up is that the engine bay doors remain open, and they are about six feet long. That's a huge amount of drag. When we installed jet engines in the Tst-14 and four Arcuses, we had the main doors close over the engine bay and two small "sub-doors" open around the engine mount. With the engine extended, we measured the L/D of the Arcus J (jet) at 38:1. The Arcus M gets 13:1 with engine extended.
  #96  
Old September 21st 19, 02:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Default Kawa rough landing?

On 9/21/2019 3:58 AM, krasw wrote:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:57:12 AM UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Staying safe is almost entirely a matter of operating within your limits,
rather than being highly skilled.


This is so true. Another truth is that pilots peak at their flying skills
pretty early. I'm mid-forties and already accepted that my reaction time,
memory, capability to observe things, flying string centered all them time
etc. are all past prime, even when flying steady 100-200 hrs every single
year. Skill of pilot DOES NOT cumulate over decades. All you can improve is
the judgement and that includes recognizing that you could outland to a
dime 20 years ago after engine failing to start, and cannot do it anymore.


At least one non-pilot agrees! "A man's got to know his limitations." - Clint
Eastwood. I'm with Clint on this one. :-)

Bob W.

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  #97  
Old September 21st 19, 02:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 774
Default Kawa rough landing?

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours." (Richard Bach, "Illusions" 1977)
  #98  
Old September 21st 19, 03:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 504
Default Kawa rough landing?

On 9/21/2019 7:30 AM, BobW wrote:
On 9/21/2019 3:58 AM, krasw wrote:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:57:12 AM UTC+3, Eric Greenwell
wrote:
Staying safe is almost entirely a matter of operating within your
limits, rather than being highly skilled.


This is so true. Another truth is that pilots peak at their flying
skills pretty early. I'm mid-forties and already accepted that my
reaction time, memory, capability to observe things, flying string
centered all them time etc. are all past prime, even when flying steady
100-200 hrs every single year. Skill of pilot DOES NOT cumulate over
decades. All you can improve is the judgement and that includes
recognizing that you could outland to a dime 20 years ago after engine
failing to start, and cannot do it anymore.


At least one non-pilot agrees! "A man's got to know his limitations." -
Clint Eastwood. I'm with Clint on this one. :-)


And at least one other pilot agrees. Check out the video embedded in the link
discussing the recent loss of a highly-modified Wilga...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/09...e-off-in-reno/

Congratulations (and condolences) to Mike Patey (whom I've never met) - PIC,
owner-builder of the destroyed plane - for his accomplishments, not the least
of which is brutal honesty with himself. IMO, pilots of every stripe would be
well-served if the trait were universal.

Be careful, have fun, and - if given the opportunity - learn from your
mistakes. Even better, learn from *others* mistakes!

Bob W.

---
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https://www.avg.com

  #99  
Old September 21st 19, 04:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Kawa rough landing?

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:30:33 AM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 9/21/2019 3:58 AM, krasw wrote:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:57:12 AM UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Staying safe is almost entirely a matter of operating within your limits,
rather than being highly skilled.


This is so true. Another truth is that pilots peak at their flying skills
pretty early. I'm mid-forties and already accepted that my reaction time,
memory, capability to observe things, flying string centered all them time
etc. are all past prime, even when flying steady 100-200 hrs every single
year. Skill of pilot DOES NOT cumulate over decades. All you can improve is
the judgement and that includes recognizing that you could outland to a
dime 20 years ago after engine failing to start, and cannot do it anymore.


At least one non-pilot agrees! "A man's got to know his limitations." - Clint
Eastwood. I'm with Clint on this one. :-)

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Those are the words of Harry Callahan, not Clint Eastwood.
 




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