Kawa rough landing?

I watched the crash video and, as soon as I saw the left wing rise and
the right suspension collapse /_before advancing power for takeoff_/, I
thought to myself, "Take it back to the hangar".Â* I think there was a
bit of hubris at work there.

On 9/21/2019 8:04 AM, BobW wrote:
On 9/21/2019 7:30 AM, BobW wrote:
On 9/21/2019 3:58 AM, krasw wrote:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:57:12 AM UTC+3, Eric Greenwell
wrote:
Staying safe is almost entirely a matter of operating within your
limits, rather than being highly skilled.


This is so true. Another truth is that pilots peak at their flying
skills pretty early. I'm mid-forties and already accepted that my
reaction time, memory, capability to observe things, flying string
centered all them time etc. are all past prime, even when flying steady
100-200 hrs every single year. Skill of pilot DOES NOT cumulate over
decades. All you can improve is the judgement and that includes
recognizing that you could outland to a dime 20 years ago after engine
failing to start, and cannot do it anymore.

At least one non-pilot agrees! "A man's got to know his limitations." -
Clint Eastwood. I'm with Clint on this one. :-)

And at least one other pilot agrees. Check out the video embedded in
the link discussing the recent loss of a highly-modified Wilga...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/09...e-off-in-reno/


Congratulations (and condolences) to Mike Patey (whom I've never met)
- PIC, owner-builder of the destroyed plane - for his accomplishments,
not the least of which is brutal honesty with himself. IMO, pilots of
every stripe would be well-served if the trait were universal.

Be careful, have fun, and - if given the opportunity - learn from your
mistakes. Even better, learn from *others* mistakes!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


--
Dan, 5J

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 11:16:46 AM UTC-7, wrote:
"Pilots are still killing themselves in low level stall-spin"
Why? We are not in agreement on the "why" part 2g. You are pushing the standard line about "coordination". A bunch of us on here are saying WRONG. Coordination is of SeCONDARY importance in relation to ENERGY MANAGEMENT.

I can fly an entirely uncoordinated pattern, slipping all over the place, skidding all over the place and still not be in danger of a stall/spin. Your guy can fly totally coordinated and screw the pooch into a stall/spin because he doesnt manage the energy properly!!

Imop, many are emphasising the wrong factor in stall/spin prevention

That is a pretty remarkable statement - have you analyzed each and everyone of these accidents? I would guess NO. Most of them have no witnesses whatsoever. I witnessed one non-fatal accident, and I would say that both played a role; the pilot lost power during launch in his motorglider and, rather than landing straight ahead (there was plenty of runway remaining), did a low-energy, skidding turn to the crosswind runway. The glider did a spin entry and came down hitting the wingtip first, and then cartwheeled. Yes, you need to do both.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

But, back to your claim that you can't enter a spin if you fly fast enough. It is regularly stated that a wing can be stalled at any speed or attitude.. You are essentially claiming that this can't happen to you - this is a first; I have NEVER heard that claim made before. Good luck with that!

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 8:27:43 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Tom,

I think you misread my post. No one ever practices spins at pattern height and I'd never recommend it. My point was that practicing spins and spin entry and recovery at altitude might save your life should a moment of distraction in the pattern lead to a departure. Never practicing spins at all leads you to trying to figure everything out for the first time at low altitude should the worst happen. Early recognition is half the battle.

Andy

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom

Andy,

I didn't misread your post, but I am certain you misread mine:

"We are all saying the same things, the ONLY difference is the emphasis on priorities. We all say that glider pilots should fly coordinated and be taught spin recognition and recovery. I am only pointing out that this isn't totally working because pilots are still killing themselves with low altitude stall-spins. Personally, this happened to a friend of mine, and I witnessed a second friend very nearly kill himself doing exactly this."

To repeat, spin recognition and recovery training should be taught (and practiced). But I think you would agree that it is far better not to enter the spin in the first place, especially at low altitude. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Here is an attempted spin recovery that didn't work:
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

Tom

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 12:32:23 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 8:27:43 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Tom,

I think you misread my post. No one ever practices spins at pattern height and I'd never recommend it. My point was that practicing spins and spin entry and recovery at altitude might save your life should a moment of distraction in the pattern lead to a departure. Never practicing spins at all leads you to trying to figure everything out for the first time at low altitude should the worst happen. Early recognition is half the battle.

Andy

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom

Andy,

I didn't misread your post, but I am certain you misread mine:

"We are all saying the same things, the ONLY difference is the emphasis on priorities. We all say that glider pilots should fly coordinated and be taught spin recognition and recovery. I am only pointing out that this isn't totally working because pilots are still killing themselves with low altitude stall-spins. Personally, this happened to a friend of mine, and I witnessed a second friend very nearly kill himself doing exactly this."

To repeat, spin recognition and recovery training should be taught (and practiced). But I think you would agree that it is far better not to enter the spin in the first place, especially at low altitude. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Here is an attempted spin recovery that didn't work:
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

Tom

I agree that it is better to not spin in the first place. But I would not post that is a spin recovery that didn't work. Based on the report, it doesn't look like the pilot tried to recover correctly (or at all before turning into a spiral dive). I was amazed when I did spin training in Arizona how quickly a glider recovers as soon as you push the stick forward. This guy was flying in a competition with other gliders and had Marijuana, and Valium in his system. Luckily he didn't kill anybody else with his f*ing drug use. You don't want to know what I really think about dirt bags that fly or drive while impaired.

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:06:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
The main reason motorgliders like the Arcus see such a large decrease in performance with the mast up is that the engine bay doors remain open, and they are about six feet long. That's a huge amount of drag. When we installed jet engines in the Tst-14 and four Arcuses, we had the main doors close over the engine bay and two small "sub-doors" open around the engine mount. With the engine extended, we measured the L/D of the Arcus J (jet) at 38:1.. The Arcus M gets 13:1 with engine extended.

The principal source of drag is the prop; the engine bay doors are aligned with the slipstream, and doesn't matter how long they are, the frontal area remains the same (very small). One ASH26e pilot reported a glide of 17:1 with prop out, and the 26e has fairly long engine bay doors. I have landed the 26e with the prop out and it was uneventful. I have also landed the DG400 uneventfully with the prop out; the one thing to remember is that you don't have the same glide that you do with the engine stowed, so don't make big patterns. I suspect that is what happened to the two cases that were cited. I have also made a simulated engine failure landing in a C152, and its glide was significantly worse (had to go straight for the runway after a 135 degree turn).

Tom

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 1:24:28 PM UTC-7, Richard DalCanto wrote:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 12:32:23 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 8:27:43 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Tom,

I think you misread my post. No one ever practices spins at pattern height and I'd never recommend it. My point was that practicing spins and spin entry and recovery at altitude might save your life should a moment of distraction in the pattern lead to a departure. Never practicing spins at all leads you to trying to figure everything out for the first time at low altitude should the worst happen. Early recognition is half the battle.

Andy

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom

Andy,

I didn't misread your post, but I am certain you misread mine:

"We are all saying the same things, the ONLY difference is the emphasis on priorities. We all say that glider pilots should fly coordinated and be taught spin recognition and recovery. I am only pointing out that this isn't totally working because pilots are still killing themselves with low altitude stall-spins. Personally, this happened to a friend of mine, and I witnessed a second friend very nearly kill himself doing exactly this."

To repeat, spin recognition and recovery training should be taught (and practiced). But I think you would agree that it is far better not to enter the spin in the first place, especially at low altitude. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Here is an attempted spin recovery that didn't work:
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

Tom

I agree that it is better to not spin in the first place. But I would not post that is a spin recovery that didn't work. Based on the report, it doesn't look like the pilot tried to recover correctly (or at all before turning into a spiral dive). I was amazed when I did spin training in Arizona how quickly a glider recovers as soon as you push the stick forward. This guy was flying in a competition with other gliders and had Marijuana, and Valium in his system. Luckily he didn't kill anybody else with his f*ing drug use. You don't want to know what I really think about dirt bags that fly or drive while impaired.

The NTSB stated that a blood sample was unavailable, so whether or not he was impaired could not be determined. If the NTSB couldn't determine that, I know you can't!

The spin recovery was attempted (this was witnessed), but was unsuccessful. High performance gliders build up speed very quickly - if you try to pull out of the dive too aggressively, which you are motivated to do avoid over-speeding the glider, you can overload the wings and rip them off. This is an inherent risk of practicing spin recoveries that hasn't been mentioned in this thread.

Tom

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 2:43:24 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 1:24:28 PM UTC-7, Richard DalCanto wrote:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 12:32:23 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 8:27:43 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Tom,

I think you misread my post. No one ever practices spins at pattern height and I'd never recommend it. My point was that practicing spins and spin entry and recovery at altitude might save your life should a moment of distraction in the pattern lead to a departure. Never practicing spins at all leads you to trying to figure everything out for the first time at low altitude should the worst happen. Early recognition is half the battle.

Andy

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom

Andy,

I didn't misread your post, but I am certain you misread mine:

"We are all saying the same things, the ONLY difference is the emphasis on priorities. We all say that glider pilots should fly coordinated and be taught spin recognition and recovery. I am only pointing out that this isn't totally working because pilots are still killing themselves with low altitude stall-spins. Personally, this happened to a friend of mine, and I witnessed a second friend very nearly kill himself doing exactly this."

To repeat, spin recognition and recovery training should be taught (and practiced). But I think you would agree that it is far better not to enter the spin in the first place, especially at low altitude. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Here is an attempted spin recovery that didn't work:
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

Tom

I agree that it is better to not spin in the first place. But I would not post that is a spin recovery that didn't work. Based on the report, it doesn't look like the pilot tried to recover correctly (or at all before turning into a spiral dive). I was amazed when I did spin training in Arizona how quickly a glider recovers as soon as you push the stick forward. This guy was flying in a competition with other gliders and had Marijuana, and Valium in his system. Luckily he didn't kill anybody else with his f*ing drug use. You don't want to know what I really think about dirt bags that fly or drive while impaired.

The NTSB stated that a blood sample was unavailable, so whether or not he was impaired could not be determined. If the NTSB couldn't determine that, I know you can't!



Tom

It said that the NTSB did not have blood samples to determine the exact drug levels, but they were definitely in his system. Not the kind of person I want to share airspace with.

2G wrote on 9/21/2019 1:30 PM:
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:06:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
The main reason motorgliders like the Arcus see such a large decrease in performance with the mast up is that the engine bay doors remain open, and they are about six feet long. That's a huge amount of drag. When we installed jet engines in the Tst-14 and four Arcuses, we had the main doors close over the engine bay and two small "sub-doors" open around the engine mount. With the engine extended, we measured the L/D of the Arcus J (jet) at 38:1.. The Arcus M gets 13:1 with engine extended.

The principal source of drag is the prop; the engine bay doors are aligned with the slipstream, and doesn't matter how long they are, the frontal area remains the same (very small). One ASH26e pilot reported a glide of 17:1 with prop out, and the 26e has fairly long engine bay doors. I have landed the 26e with the prop out and it was uneventful. I have also landed the DG400 uneventfully with the prop out; the one thing to remember is that you don't have the same glide that you do with the engine stowed, so don't make big patterns. I suspect that is what happened to the two cases that were cited. I have also made a simulated engine failure landing in a C152, and its glide was significantly worse (had to go straight for the runway after a 135 degree turn).

Was the 13:1 measured with gear down? With the propeller stopped? In the flap
position for best glide?


I agree with Tom. It may be counter-intuitive that the drag of a mast is
relatively small, but low speeds, the wing is generally the biggest drag producer,
not stuff sticking out in the wind.


As I mentioned earlier, 26E owners spend 2 to 5 minutes cooling the engine after
stopping it. The mast is lowered to about a 30 degree angle to the fuselage, which
holds the doors completely open. And yet, we can thermal effectively, and when we
finally stow the mast, we don't notice any improvement in climb rate. We're not
fooling ourselves on this - we have thermalled with other gliders while the mast
is in the cooling position, and still climb with them.

Open doors on 26E make very little drag at 50-55 knots, and I suspect that is also
true of the Arcus M. After all, would SH design a glider with doors that reduce
the climb rate by 300 fpm?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 11:25:03 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 11:16:46 AM UTC-7, wrote:
"Pilots are still killing themselves in low level stall-spin"
Why? We are not in agreement on the "why" part 2g. You are pushing the standard line about "coordination". A bunch of us on here are saying WRONG. Coordination is of SeCONDARY importance in relation to ENERGY MANAGEMENT.

I can fly an entirely uncoordinated pattern, slipping all over the place, skidding all over the place and still not be in danger of a stall/spin. Your guy can fly totally coordinated and screw the pooch into a stall/spin because he doesnt manage the energy properly!!

Imop, many are emphasising the wrong factor in stall/spin prevention

That is a pretty remarkable statement - have you analyzed each and everyone of these accidents? I would guess NO. Most of them have no witnesses whatsoever. I witnessed one non-fatal accident, and I would say that both played a role; the pilot lost power during launch in his motorglider and, rather than landing straight ahead (there was plenty of runway remaining), did a low-energy, skidding turn to the crosswind runway. The glider did a spin entry and came down hitting the wingtip first, and then cartwheeled. Yes, you need to do both.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

But, back to your claim that you can't enter a spin if you fly fast enough. It is regularly stated that a wing can be stalled at any speed or attitude. You are essentially claiming that this can't happen to you - this is a first; I have NEVER heard that claim made before. Good luck with that!

That is quite a read. One of the most instructive events I ever had happen was flying a 2-32 the spin went spiral on me. The nose position didn't seem to change but anti-spin inputs were not working, so I leveled wings and pulled out of dive, before the speed had started to build. The POH for the ASG29 warns that spins might have a tendency to turn into a spiral. Know the slow flight and spin characteristic of what you are flying.

Don't forget the alcohol.Â* Stoners flying.Â* Who'da thunk it?

On 9/21/2019 2:24 PM, Richard DalCanto wrote:
This guy was flying in a competition with other gliders and had Marijuana, and Valium in his system.

--
Dan, 5J