Glider Safety

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:53:31 -0800 (PST), bildan
wrote:


I second the recurrent training idea.

This IS a very good idea.

But, look at what happened in the last few years in Switzerland.
There, no medical was required from glider pilots, after the first and
only examination as the licence is released. It was in fact a "once in
a lifetime" exam.

After a series of gliding accidents where elderly pilots were
involved, and the suspect is that at least one of two of them were
incapacitated before the crash occurred... And considering that one of
such crashes happened unfortunately in a public garden... A
periodical medical review is now compulsory in Switzerland.

Aldo Cernezzi

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:25:43 +0100, cernauta wrote:

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:53:31 -0800 (PST), bildan
wrote:


I second the recurrent training idea.

This IS a very good idea.

Agreed. In my (UK) club all pilots must do a short refresher course
before the start of the season. Each refresher is for four pilots and is
run by two instructors. Its aimed at checking situational awareness and
eventualities rather than merely seeing if you can still fly. It consists
of:
- a chalk & talk session with the instructors running the course,
typically for no more than an hour.
- an aero tow to 3000-3500 ft for stalling and spinning exercises.
There's usually some exercises during the tow too - slack rope, out of
position recovery, etc.
- two winch launches which involve simulated cable breaks or power
failures. You know that you're unlikely to get to the top but
not what's about to be sprung on you.

After a series of gliding accidents where elderly pilots were involved,
and the suspect is that at least one of two of them were incapacitated
before the crash occurred... And considering that one of such crashes
happened unfortunately in a public garden... A periodical medical
review is now compulsory in Switzerland.

We used to be self-certifying for solo flying but have had a 5 yearly
medical examination, administered by your GP, for a long time. It used to
be required only for passenger carrying or instructing. I don't know when
this was introduced: it pre-dates my start in gliding. The required
standard is equivalent to the professional driver's medical. I think this
is a sensible and reasonable approach.

Around 2003 or 4 the self-certification was replaced by the same medical
required for passenger carrying and instructing.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 2/22/2010 1:11 PM, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Feb 22, 10:55 am,
wrote:
Right. Let us inflict more restrictions on ourselves. For the
children of course. If it is a good idea for contests then it is good
idea for everyone...



Is there a case for requiring a medical certificate for SSA sanctioned
contests?

Andy


I am unaware of any third party being injured from a glider accident
resulting from incapacity of the pilot. After all, sailplanes are
pretty light and don't burn. However, it's pretty unsettling to the
rest of us. I was at Parowan last year and was also personally
affected by one such incident. You'd get my vote for requiring a
medical certificate.

You could also make a case for requiring a medical certificate for
pilots instructing and carrying passengers, but again, I doubt that
there is much of an accident database to support the need for this.

Mike
Why would it be more unsettling to someone for a glider pilot to have a
heart attack while flying and have a quick end doing what he/she loves,
vs having the same heart attack on the ground, which depending on the
circumstances may leave the person with a miserable quality of life.

I can understand the argument that we should protect innocent bystanders
from being injured as a result of a pilot's medical condition. That
same argument applies to automobiles, where an accident resulting from a
medical event is probably a lot more likely to injure a bystander than a
glider accident.

The reality is that there are a lot of glider pilots (myself included)
who ended up in the sport because it became too much of a hassle to keep
our medicals. If we start requiring medicals for soaring, it will
devastate the sport.

Personally, I'd love to live my final moments doing what I love, and
hope that all of my friends and family will share in that joy and be
thankful that I had a quick and uncomplicated end.



Mike Schumann

--
Mike Schumann

On Feb 23, 5:23*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 2/22/2010 1:11 PM, Mike the Strike wrote:



On Feb 22, 10:55 am,
wrote:
Right. *Let us inflict more restrictions on ourselves. *For the
children of course. *If it is a good idea for contests then it is good
idea for everyone...

Is there a case for requiring a medical certificate for SSA sanctioned
contests?

Andy

I am unaware of any third party being injured from a glider accident
resulting from incapacity of the pilot. *After all, sailplanes are
pretty light and don't burn. *However, it's pretty unsettling to the
rest of us. *I was at Parowan last year and was also personally
affected by one such incident. *You'd get my vote for requiring a
medical certificate.

You could also make a case for requiring a medical certificate for
pilots instructing and carrying passengers, but again, I doubt that
there is much of an accident database to support the need for this.

Mike

Why would it be more unsettling to someone for a glider pilot to have a
heart attack while flying and have a quick end doing what he/she loves,
vs having the same heart attack on the ground, which depending on the
circumstances may leave the person with a miserable quality of life.

I can understand the argument that we should protect innocent bystanders
from being injured as a result of a pilot's medical condition. *That
same argument applies to automobiles, where an accident resulting from a
medical event is probably a lot more likely to injure a bystander than a
glider accident.

The reality is that there are a lot of glider pilots (myself included)
who ended up in the sport because it became too much of a hassle to keep
our medicals. *If we start requiring medicals for soaring, it will
devastate the sport.

Personally, I'd love to live my final moments doing what I love, and
hope that all of my friends and family will share in that joy and be
thankful that I had a quick and uncomplicated end.

Mike Schumann

--
Mike Schumann

well said..........

Brad

On Feb 23, 8:23*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:

Personally, I'd love to live my final moments doing what I love, and
hope that all of my friends and family will share in that joy and be
thankful that I had a quick and uncomplicated end.


You ever help clean up a wreck in the woods after a fatal?

It ain't exactly a treat.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

T8 wrote:
On Feb 23, 8:23*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:

Personally, I'd love to live my final moments doing what I love, and
hope that all of my friends and family will share in that joy and be
thankful that I had a quick and uncomplicated end.


You ever help clean up a wreck in the woods after a fatal?

It ain't exactly a treat.

Since that is a point applicable to all fatal accidents (train, plane, and
automobile) and all causal chains leading to those accidents, its non-
uniqueness effectively makes it irrelevant to requiring a glider medical.

On Feb 23, 5:40*pm, T8 wrote:
On Feb 23, 8:23*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:

Personally, I'd love to live my final moments doing what I love, and
hope that all of my friends and family will share in that joy and be
thankful that I had a quick and uncomplicated end.

You ever help clean up a wreck in the woods after a fatal?

It ain't exactly a treat.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Twice.................it ain't a treat...............but it was worse
for us than them, at least I have to hope that was the case. I'd still
rather go out that way than with DNR.

On Feb 23, 8:50*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
T8 wrote:
On Feb 23, 8:23*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:

Personally, I'd love to live my final moments doing what I love, and
hope that all of my friends and family will share in that joy and be
thankful that I had a quick and uncomplicated end.

You ever help clean up a wreck in the woods after a fatal?

It ain't exactly a treat.

Since that is a point applicable to all fatal accidents (train, plane, and
automobile) and all causal chains leading to those accidents, its non-
uniqueness effectively makes it irrelevant to requiring a glider medical.

I don't support requiring glider medicals. I took the previous
poster's comments to be a version of John Denver's "I wanna die in my
airplane". I take issue with sentiments like these. Messy, bad for
the sport. It's a sh!tty thing to wish for.

-Evan

I cannot give up that easily -- I hope to die in my sleep, like my
Uncle Ray, not screaming like his passengers.

Sincerely, I don't buy the "doing what he loved" bit. I love life, so
I hang onto it, try to savor every minute.

Re-currrent training to a high level of proficiency (different for
every pilot) is what is needed to reverse the horrible safety trend in
glider flying (and aerotowing.).
Go fly with a seasoned instructor for an afternoon and get a "real"
Flight Review.
Beware the "he or she is an experienced pilot" excuse. Laws of
gravity and aerodynamics are no less fatal to the "skygods."
Offer to simply ride along as copilot in a two seater with the older
pilots - don't send them to the golf course.
Try intervention with miss-behaving glider pilots and your rogue
towpilots who insist on a wingover and an aggressive dive just seconds
after you release.

Speak up about the pilots that you have already identified as "an
accident waiting to happen", then look to yourself.
Why are we waiting?

Speak up about the pilots that you have already identified as "an
accident waiting to happen", then look to yourself.
Why are we waiting?

I'd be somewhat careful about this comment. Ultra-conservative flag
pole sitters love to criticize pilots who go out and polish the rocks
and do things they consider "unsafe"

I would have to think those pilots, and some of them are CFIG's would
love to pull an intervention on a few of us. Question is, are they
really safer than me?

A few of us spent 2.5 hours in close proximity to rocks and trees
yesterday for a spectacular ridge/mountain flight. To my knowledge,
none of the local instructors were there, or have done anything like
that in years, if ever.

So, are you telling me they are going to tell me how to fly safe?

I get a BFR in power every year, and fly 12 months out of the year in
my sailplane; my currency and safety is something I take
responsibility for, not some part time instructor who sit's in a
Blanik every other weekend.

Brad