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#11
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
confessed the following: A very logical, reasoned and well-crafted entry to the argument. Can't you at least save the scatology until the end/ touche' We'll agree to disagree about gwb's interest versus the fact of rated sup and the exodus to the airlines. gwb lost interest, he never said he was ineligble. gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968, saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment. No one ever signed up for active or reserve duty to a "life long commitment." No one. You had an active duty service commitment. Poorly worded on my part. I'm not talking about the form we all signed for accepting training. I'm talking about a "letter" of intent where gwb professed that he wanted to fly and that he had a desire to make flying a "life long" pursuit, and the best way to accomplish that was as a pilot in the TX ANG. Once again you are garbling full-time (the F-15A guy) who probably accrued 1000 hours operational by the time he separated going to work as an RTU IP (a full-time Guard slot). Nope you assumed incorrectly...the co-worker was a fulltime airline wienie flying as a part-time RTU IP. "I know a guy" isn't a good basis for generalizations. I know several, many exceptions...it proves ANG units can and do make exceptions. So we'll ageree to disagree. Good for you. Thanks...I thought so. A lot of guys I know kept flying for as long as they could.... So what? So what? Well you and I disagree on the motives of gwb's lack of interest. Robey |
#12
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On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:37:54 GMT, Robey Price
wrote: After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus confessed the following: First, if your unit is transitioning to a new aircraft and you don't have sufficient retainability to qualify for the re-qual, you don't get trained. It isn't losing interest. Bull**** and you know it. A 6 year obligation gives you sufficient retainability. Period. The unit spent the time and money to send you to UPT, the prudent thing (vice "fraud, waste, and abuse") would be to get a return on the ANG's/AF's investment. gwb lost interest, he never said he was ineligble. gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968, saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment. There is no evidence that he even attempted to fulfill that "promise." He never said he lost interest, but his action sure did. For a guy that is reportedly well thought of as an F-102 pilot, the unit didn't make the "fraternity rush" to keep him. A guy doesn't show up or make an attempt to fly, the obvious conclusion is he lost interest. Second, if your unit is becoming a training squadron vice an operational squadron and you don't have sufficient experience to become an instructor in the training unit, you don't get upgraded. It isn't losing interest. As the training officer in a line squadron I processed paperwork to make guys IPs with less than 500 hours...some approved some not. The 111th FIS still had F-102s on hand thru 1973. Plenty of time for a guy that wanted to make the transition to get the minimum 500 hours. And the USAF/ANG these nice things called "waivers." Want proof? A co-worker flew F-15 Albinos, never dropped a bomb in his life. Got hired as an A-7 RTU IP at Tuscon when the wing was converting to F-16s. He flew the SLUF for 10 months. Then he transitioned to the F-16. ANG/AFRes units hire C-5 pilots to be FACs, F-16 guys to fly C-130s, C-141 pilots to fly A-10s. If a unit thinks highly enough of a guy/gal they will hire them. ANG units favor folks already in the unit...happens all the time. Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions. Nothing at all unusual about that. True enough, but everyone I ever met kept flying as long as they could. I notice that Bush flew T-33s towards the last. I wonder if that included hauling around a chaff tank and jamming pod? For active duty that would seem to be a job to keep your flying time up and look ahead for brighter days when you might be able to get back into the cockpit of something else full time. For Bush it might have seemed like there was no light at the end of the tunnel. When you are hauling a chaff tank and pod around on a T-33 and you have flown a set profile for interceptor training I don't imagine there is much fun flying afterwards with all that junk hanging off the wings... |
#14
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Sir,
I'd like to start my counter-argument with the President's motivation for entering the ANG. G.W. Bush stated to the Dallas Morning News that, "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada." (MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4271520/ ) If G.W. Bush could pass a Class A flight physical, he could have joined practically any active-duty unit that deployed to SEA. Simply, George Bush did not answer his country's call in its most difficult times. Whether or not he was a good fighter pilot becomes irrelevant if he was vaulted over 500 other candidates for a intensely competetive ANG billet with a 25% score in his pilot's aptitude test. (Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer) After earning the coveted US Air Force wings at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars to the American Taxpayers, he completes less than 200 flight hours in F-102 Daggers Ed Rasimus wrote in message Third, drug testing was not routine during the period in question. It was available to commanders on a "suspicion" basis but seldom applicable to aircrews. Random drug testing for lower rank enlisted came into practice in '73-74 and was expanded to all ranks by the end of the decade long after Bush was discharged from the ANG. Fourth, even when drug testing was instituted, it was NEVER part of a flight physical which was a scheduled event--hence a druggie could clean up before the physical. Drug testing was separate, done under controlled conditions and with samples handled in a total different chain than urinalysis from annual physicals. Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions. Nothing at all unusual about that. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" Both from Smithsonian Books ***www.thunderchief.org |
#15
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Wouldn't it be abnormal for a tactical aviator to rack up less than
200 hours in jets for the period he was in service, six years from 1968 to 1973?(Associated Press http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...uard_flights_7 ) Drug tests for aviators were implemented in April 1972. (Salon Magazine http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/06/drugs/ ) His next exam was for October of 1972, which he refused to attend, earning him disqualification from flight status. He left the ANG in 1973, the threat of injury or death in Vietnam having passed with the cease-fire signed on January 1973. Does he deserve to lead America when he himself refused to hear the call to defend her? |
#16
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wrote in message om... Sir, I'd like to start my counter-argument with the President's motivation for entering the ANG. G.W. Bush stated to the Dallas Morning News that, "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada." (MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4271520/ ) Yeah, and John Kerry is on record as saying the only reason he volunteered for Swift boat duty was because at that time they were only involved in war on its periphery, so that would be a great way for him to get his "combat veteran" ticket punched without having to actually expose himself to combat. So what? If G.W. Bush could pass a Class A flight physical, he could have joined practically any active-duty unit that deployed to SEA. Simply, George Bush did not answer his country's call in its most difficult times. You are apparently of a mistaken view as to what "answering his country's call" really means. He volunteered for ANG flight duty,and he made it through the training program, versus taking his chances on the draft lottery--how do you know he might not have drawn a lottery number that did NOT get him drafted in the end? So in essence, he volunteered for a Guard hitch, ensuring he was "answering his country's call", versus taking his chances in regards to either being drafted or not. He went beyond that by asking to volunteer for Palace Alert, but he did not have the necessary experience to make him competitive for that program at that time. And before you step on your crank, you might recall that when he joined the Guard, some twenty thousand Guardsmen ( from both Army and Air contingents) had just been sent off to active duty in Vietnam, with another ten thou or so ending up elsewhere, in places like Korea (which was anything but a "cold" warzone in the late sixties). he did answer his country's call--he just did not do so in the exceedingly narrow view that you have chosen. So, what about all of those active duty personnel who served at the same time, but never made it to Vietnam--do you think *they* were not answering the call, either? Maybe you think those active military personnel should have been able to just decide for themselves where their duty locations were to be? I don't think so. Whether or not he was a good fighter pilot becomes irrelevant if he was vaulted over 500 other candidates for a intensely competetive ANG billet with a 25% score in his pilot's aptitude test. (Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer) That has yet to be proven--how many of those 500 could (a) pass the flight aptitude test, (b) were willing to fly, and (c) were willing to take the extensive time required for active duty for training (ADT) that went along with getting qualified as a F-102 pilot? I doubt you can provide a concrete answer to even one of those questions, and if you can't, then your claim that he was unfairly vaulted over those other guys is baseless. After earning the coveted US Air Force wings at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars to the American Taxpayers, he completes less than 200 flight hours in F-102 Daggers So? You might care to read Ed's posts today in regards to the pilot situation at the time, and then you'd have to recall that his unit had just been changed from being an active air defense player to its new role of serving as a training element for ANG interceptor crews. It was looking at losing its remaining F-102's in the near term, and when you have a choice between paying to requalify a junior part-time ANG pilot with little expereince versus maybe instead taking some O-3 who just got off an active duty tour with beaucoup hours in the aircraft you are transitioning to, which do you think is the better deal for said taxpayers? This ignores the fact that Guardsmen do move sometimes, and those moves can require them to find a new unit closer to their new abodes. It is a *part-time* job, for gosh sakes, not their most self-absorbing activity in life. Brooks Ed Rasimus wrote in message Third, drug testing was not routine during the period in question. It was available to commanders on a "suspicion" basis but seldom applicable to aircrews. Random drug testing for lower rank enlisted came into practice in '73-74 and was expanded to all ranks by the end of the decade long after Bush was discharged from the ANG. Fourth, even when drug testing was instituted, it was NEVER part of a flight physical which was a scheduled event--hence a druggie could clean up before the physical. Drug testing was separate, done under controlled conditions and with samples handled in a total different chain than urinalysis from annual physicals. Fifth, some folks don't have an all-encompassing interest in flying fighters for a career. They may have other goals and ambitions. Nothing at all unusual about that. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" Both from Smithsonian Books ***www.thunderchief.org |
#17
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From:
Date: 9/11/2004 6:45 PM Central Daylight Time Message-id: Wouldn't it be abnormal for a tactical aviator to rack up less than 200 hours in jets for the period he was in service, six years from 1968 to 1973?(Associated Press http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...go_pr_wh/bush_ guard_flights_7 ) Drug tests for aviators were implemented in April 1972. (Salon Magazine http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/06/drugs/ ) His next exam was for October of 1972, which he refused to attend, earning him disqualification from flight status. He left the ANG in 1973, the threat of injury or death in Vietnam having passed with the cease-fire signed on January 1973. Does he deserve to lead America when he himself refused to hear the call to defend her? So what military service do you have? You display an amazing lack of understanding how the system works. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
#18
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wrote in message om... Wouldn't it be abnormal for a tactical aviator to rack up less than 200 hours in jets for the period he was in service, six years from 1968 to 1973?(Associated Press http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...uard_flights_7 ) Having a hard time adding up hours today? He had some 320 plus hours in the F-102, plus whatever hours he chalked up in the T-33, T-37, and T-38. Drug tests for aviators were implemented in April 1972. (Salon Magazine http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/06/drugs/ ) His next exam was for October of 1972, which he refused to attend, earning him disqualification from flight status. He left the ANG in 1973, the threat of injury or death in Vietnam having passed with the cease-fire signed on January 1973. Your "source" merely refers to an old AF Reg without detailing what it said. I'll take the words of folks like Ed, who say that drug testing was not a normal part of the flight physical program. A little further research on your own part will show that drug testing really did not get to be widespread until late in the 1970's, long after Bush had left duty. And IIRC, the only testing that was very widespread in those latter days was for THC, which you don't get from cocaine, which is the narcotic that y'all folks are always claiming Bush was regularly using. Even in the late eighties, when I was on active duty, cocaine testing was the exception because at *that* time you had to do the urinalysis within something like 72-96 hours of use in order to get a positive result (it has gotten better since then); well aware of that because the CID guy who came to meet with me about a suspected troopie cokehead (life as a battalion SDO was sometimes quite interesting) was quite emphatic about having to do the test within a very short timespan. Does he deserve to lead America when he himself refused to hear the call to defend her? You have made it abundantly clear that you have no earthly idea what the "call" is. Merely signing up for selective service and heeding the results is one way of answering the "call", as is volunteering for service, even in the Guard/Reserves. Bush joined the Guard after the first mobilization of reservists was announced in early 1968, and before the second mobilization was conducted. Between twenty and thrity thousand troops and airmen were activated during those call ups, and an awful lot of them ended up in Vietnam--about one hundred of them died there. If that ain't one way of answering your "call", then I don't know what the hell you think one is. Brooks |
#19
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Sir,
It is said that he found a more satisfying 'high'. Do the annual military aviator physicals include drug tests for coke? Depends what time period you are asking about. Today the answer would be yes. In the early 70's it depends apparently. IBM Actually the answer today and for the past 15 years (in my case) has been no. I've never been drug tested at a flight physical. I've been randomly drug tested several (probably 20+) times in my career but again never at a physical. Lego Viper driver |
#20
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sharpest101 wrote:
Do the annual military aviator physicals include drug tests for coke? No...and they never did. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
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