When is too many at a glider meet

On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 11:40:19 UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
Bruno,

You've got a ways to go to keep up with the Joneses (or more appropriately the Juhaszes)... there are over 110 registered for the European Gliding Championships in Hungary next month. That's right - one one zero. Slacker.

Erik Mann (P3)

p.s. Not to respond to troll bait, but there are places where 40 gliders is plenty and places where 100 wouldn't be out of the question. And I certainly can't think of any technical sites (mountains, ridges, forests, etc..) where there isn't some level of risk. Anyone that isn't aware of that is probably not ready to go to this sort of encampment or to leave the house unsupervised for that matter.


On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:13:27 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:02:06 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders for the Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too many, even if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually zero cross country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false sense of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the airport at once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will keep increasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.

Actually what you heard is not correct. There will be 96 gliders at our event. I was hoping for 100 but we couldn't quite make it. Darn!

All kidding aside, sorry but you heard wrong. We are not sure of the final numbers due to many last minute drop outs, but it will be somewhere in the 60's with 6 tow planes. Last year we had 68 gliders attend and it worked out well, both at the airport and in the air. The largest gaggle seen last year only had around a half dozen gliders in it. Utah air and thermals offer lots of room.

Bruno - B4

Erik, Erik, Erik how can you make this comparison? In Nephi we gather to fly with friends, attempt personal bests, fly the Great Basin, experience 8-10 knot thermals, observe National Parks and monuments from air, stay airborne for 4, 6, 8+ hours, attempt state records, find cloud streets or lift lines that run for 10's of miles, make new friends, experience rural UT and many other great experience soaring is known for.

Of course there are 110+ pilots at the European Championships, who would not want to attend when you have sponsors paying for everything, free use of gliders provided by manufacturers, accommodations at 4star hotels, air conditioned facilities for pilot meetings and lounges, ground crews provided by the organizers that do everything for the pilots, catered meals, free booze and much much more. Plus you have a set rules to follow that the US folks do not understand.

No comparison at all

Humor Ron. Humor.

P3

On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 2:30:27 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 11:40:19 UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
Bruno,

You've got a ways to go to keep up with the Joneses (or more appropriately the Juhaszes)... there are over 110 registered for the European Gliding Championships in Hungary next month. That's right - one one zero. Slacker.

Erik Mann (P3)

p.s. Not to respond to troll bait, but there are places where 40 gliders is plenty and places where 100 wouldn't be out of the question. And I certainly can't think of any technical sites (mountains, ridges, forests, etc.) where there isn't some level of risk. Anyone that isn't aware of that is probably not ready to go to this sort of encampment or to leave the house unsupervised for that matter.


On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:13:27 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:02:06 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders for the Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too many, even if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually zero cross country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false sense of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the airport at once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will keep increasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.

Actually what you heard is not correct. There will be 96 gliders at our event. I was hoping for 100 but we couldn't quite make it. Darn!

All kidding aside, sorry but you heard wrong. We are not sure of the final numbers due to many last minute drop outs, but it will be somewhere in the 60's with 6 tow planes. Last year we had 68 gliders attend and it worked out well, both at the airport and in the air. The largest gaggle seen last year only had around a half dozen gliders in it. Utah air and thermals offer lots of room.

Bruno - B4

Erik, Erik, Erik how can you make this comparison? In Nephi we gather to fly with friends, attempt personal bests, fly the Great Basin, experience 8-10 knot thermals, observe National Parks and monuments from air, stay airborne for 4, 6, 8+ hours, attempt state records, find cloud streets or lift lines that run for 10's of miles, make new friends, experience rural UT and many other great experience soaring is known for.

Of course there are 110+ pilots at the European Championships, who would not want to attend when you have sponsors paying for everything, free use of gliders provided by manufacturers, accommodations at 4star hotels, air conditioned facilities for pilot meetings and lounges, ground crews provided by the organizers that do everything for the pilots, catered meals, free booze and much much more. Plus you have a set rules to follow that the US folks do not understand.

No comparison at all

On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 13:41:45 UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
Humor Ron. Humor.

P3

On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 2:30:27 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 11:40:19 UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
Bruno,

You've got a ways to go to keep up with the Joneses (or more appropriately the Juhaszes)... there are over 110 registered for the European Gliding Championships in Hungary next month. That's right - one one zero. Slacker.

Erik Mann (P3)

p.s. Not to respond to troll bait, but there are places where 40 gliders is plenty and places where 100 wouldn't be out of the question. And I certainly can't think of any technical sites (mountains, ridges, forests, etc.) where there isn't some level of risk. Anyone that isn't aware of that is probably not ready to go to this sort of encampment or to leave the house unsupervised for that matter.


On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:13:27 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:02:06 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders for the Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too many, even if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually zero cross country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false sense of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the airport at once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will keep increasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.

Actually what you heard is not correct. There will be 96 gliders at our event. I was hoping for 100 but we couldn't quite make it. Darn!

All kidding aside, sorry but you heard wrong. We are not sure of the final numbers due to many last minute drop outs, but it will be somewhere in the 60's with 6 tow planes. Last year we had 68 gliders attend and it worked out well, both at the airport and in the air. The largest gaggle seen last year only had around a half dozen gliders in it. Utah air and thermals offer lots of room.

Bruno - B4

Erik, Erik, Erik how can you make this comparison? In Nephi we gather to fly with friends, attempt personal bests, fly the Great Basin, experience 8-10 knot thermals, observe National Parks and monuments from air, stay airborne for 4, 6, 8+ hours, attempt state records, find cloud streets or lift lines that run for 10's of miles, make new friends, experience rural UT and many other great experience soaring is known for.

Of course there are 110+ pilots at the European Championships, who would not want to attend when you have sponsors paying for everything, free use of gliders provided by manufacturers, accommodations at 4star hotels, air conditioned facilities for pilot meetings and lounges, ground crews provided by the organizers that do everything for the pilots, catered meals, free booze and much much more. Plus you have a set rules to follow that the US folks do not understand.

No comparison at all

back at ya Erik

All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 12:15:20 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Okay, I'll bite. I tried to use some tongue in cheek humor to defuse my initial gut reaction, but here goes. I think it's completely classless (i.e. lacking in grace) to throw out troll bait like your comments when someone puts tremendous effort into organizing an event like this. Having been the guy who has organized any number of soaring events and activities, I know how much safety weighs on the mind. Having people sitting on the sidelines throwing out thinly-veiled criticisms (okay, completely unveiled criticisms) based on rumor and innuendo makes people think twice about stepping up in the future.

At this point, if something DOES happen (God forbid), which is not out of the question at any glider event, you have the bully pulpit all set up to say "see, I told you so."

And, maybe I buried the lead, but IMO there are places where 40 gliders is too many and places where 80 is just fine.

Hope there's not too much humor in the above.

Erik Mann (P3)

The majority of the participants at Nephi are seasoned contest or cross-country pilots. I have no qualms about flying there.

However, it's pretty likely that one or more gliders will suffer some at least minor damage in a ten-day long event. There will be something like 300 or more cross-country flights, with rigging, derigging, towing, loading and some outlanding. (My ship suffered minor damage on my recent trip to Moriarty - trailer and hangar rash.) It's what happens when you use your ship as intended. They are fragile and cross-country flying is not a benign pastime!


Mike

On 6/25/2015 4:23 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 12:15:20 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope
to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Okay, I'll bite. I tried to use some tongue in cheek humor to defuse my
initial gut reaction, but here goes. I think it's completely classless
(i.e. lacking in grace) to throw out troll bait like your comments when
someone puts tremendous effort into organizing an event like this. Having
been the guy who has organized any number of soaring events and activities,
I know how much safety weighs on the mind. Having people sitting on the
sidelines throwing out thinly-veiled criticisms (okay, completely unveiled
criticisms) based on rumor and innuendo makes people think twice about
stepping up in the future.

At this point, if something DOES happen (God forbid), which is not out of
the question at any glider event, you have the bully pulpit all set up to
say "see, I told you so."

And, maybe I buried the lead, but IMO there are places where 40 gliders is
too many and places where 80 is just fine.

Hope there's not too much humor in the above.

Erik Mann (P3)


+1 to P3.

IMO every sensible soaring practitioner of ANY sort - tyro of every sort of
future predilection, XC wannabe, 'pure' XC fan, 'hardcore' competition
aficionado, definitional 'glasshole,' etc. - has a gut-level, deep, concern
for flight (and personal) safety. Safety does, after all, not only possibly
directly affect our own individual lives and economic futures but also
inextricably entwines the future of the activity we all feel so deeply about.

I've attended camps where I thought *10* gliders were too many (and never
returned to such sites unless I believed the site limit [as defined by me]
wasn't to be exceeded). For the record such sites were narrow mountain strips
in the Colorado Rockies limited by available ground-handling space and likely
to be influenced/quickly-shut-down by monsoon storms. I've also attended camps
where 'maximum safe glider capacity' was limited essentially by tow plane
availability.

Right or wrong my air-to-air collision/fatality concerns at EVERY camp I've
personal experience with (LOTS of 'em) were essentially unvarying; personal
paranoia has long dictated my approach to 'soaring safety' as I expect some
longer-time RASidents already are aware.

If/when I felt my personal safety limits were being pressured my reactions
were drawn from a small collection: politely expressing my concerns directly
to those in a position to 'do something' about it, whether then or in the
future; voting with my feet; explaining my thinking to those expressing
genuine curiosity; continually evaluating my assessments.

I've never thought certain approaches had serious potential to illuminate and
ameliorate 'safety concerns.'

'Certain approaches' that spring to mind include: drive-by shootings; overly
dramatic hand-waving; personal limitations unhelpfully generalized into 'group
endangerment'; concerns and 'hard conclusions' based on hearsay, indirect,
quite-possibly-muddied-by-distance information; etc.

I am in no way trying to diminish or dismiss the O.P.'s individual safety
concerns, but I do take serious issue with how they were expressed. I take
further issue with the above-noted patronizing dismissal of thoughtful,
specific replies as discussion-killing "'feel good' responses." Is there a
sane soaring practitioner anywhere in the world who doesn't "...hope to God
that...this event will be perfectly safe"?

Respectfully,
Bob W.

I thought at first that this was a reference to Steve & Howard Jones flying
the Arcus!


At 17:40 24 June 2015, Papa3 wrote:
Bruno,=20

You've got a ways to go to keep up with the Joneses (or more
appropriately
=
the Juhaszes)... there are over 110 registered for the European Gliding
Championships in Hungary next month. That's right - one one zero.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:15:20 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Hi Tom,
We addressed your original concern of NOT having 80+ gliders coming to the event - more like around 65. However,you still seem concerned. What other aspects of this event are you concerned about safety that we can review and address?

As for Glen - thanks for your kind words.

Bruno - B4

On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:15:20 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Hi Tom,
We addressed your original concern of NOT having 80+ gliders coming to the event - more like around 65. However,you still seem concerned. What other aspects of this event are you concerned about safety that we can review and address?

As for Glen - thanks for your kind words.

Bruno - B4

My original question was how many gliders is too many at a meet. This was a simple question. For my efforts I am vilified as a troll. So be it. I remember the 1984 15 Meter Nationals held at Ephrata, WA where they increased the normal limit of contestants from 40 to 65. There were two mid-airs at the contest, one of which resulted in a fatality.

I guess I was naive to expect a respectful, reasoned discussion of the subject. My bad.

Tom