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Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 23rd 04, 05:47 PM
Al
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Default Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.

http://www.gliderforum.com/thread-vi...id=167&start=1

This might be of interest when discussing the Puch and its spinning.

Condolences to the family and friends of the victims of the recent crash.

Regards

Al


  #2  
Old January 23rd 04, 06:23 PM
Mark James Boyd
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In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote:
It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this year)
so here goes:

In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all aircrew
personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in
training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to stop
the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc training.

So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining Puchaz's, Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing?

JJ Sinclair


With three times as many fatalities in training than flying (helicopters),
one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations during
helicopter training as well.
  #3  
Old January 23rd 04, 07:09 PM
JJ Sinclair
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It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this year)
so here goes:

In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all aircrew
personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in
training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to stop
the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc training.

So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining Puchaz's, Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing?

JJ Sinclair
  #4  
Old January 23rd 04, 08:18 PM
John Shelton
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Gee. This looks like a nice place to misbehave:

The military trains people with NO flying time for the purpose of
accomplishing a mission. Those missions are not all expected to end with a
landing back home but need to succeed in other ways. On the other hand,
commercial aviation and sport aviation quite often involve pilots with much
more flying time and each and every flight is expected to end safely.

So, while ignorance is bliss, training is the only way to improve ones
chances of completing a flight safely.

While insurance companies do not want helicopter trainees to practice full
autorotations, your only chance for walking without a cane is knowing how to
do one when you need to. So, the first time you do one is the first time you
need to. Not very smart.

Being an old geezer, I have a million examples.

If the training is killing people, then maybe the training procedures need
tweaking. But canceling training is a very bad idea. In the end, the Air
Force spun a zillion of us out of the sky in T-37's with only a few deaths
along the way. We were required to speak and perform the T-37 spin recovery
procedures with a calm voice while the little ******* started wrapping up.
But to this day, I can recite the -37 spin recovery procedure in my sleep
and perform it without thinking twice.

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:401166ad$1@darkstar...
In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote:
It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this

year)
so here goes:

In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all

aircrew
personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in
training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to

stop
the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc

training.

So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining

Puchaz's, Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing?

JJ Sinclair


With three times as many fatalities in training than flying (helicopters),
one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations during
helicopter training as well.



  #5  
Old January 23rd 04, 08:27 PM
Stewart Kissel
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OK JJ, I'll bite (sorta)-

With spin entry training being done so often in benign-handling
ships, what in fact are we teaching/learning?

'Pull back, Pull back, okay kick in full rudder'-and
the thinking might go-'Gee, how does anyone get into
a spin, this is way to much work'

How does this apply the first time someone gets in
a ship that may fall off on its own?



At 18:24 23 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote:
It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good
controversies (this year)
so here goes:

In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump
training to all aircrew
personnel. They soon learned that they were getting
twice the injuries in
training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs.
They decided to stop
the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit
deployment, etc training.

So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its
been reining Puchaz's, Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin
entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing?

JJ Sinclair


With three times as many fatalities in training than
flying (helicopters),
one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations
during
helicopter training as well.




  #6  
Old January 23rd 04, 09:30 PM
Bob Salvo
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Default

Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing


Exactly!
Bob
  #7  
Old January 23rd 04, 10:09 PM
Robin Birch
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In message , Bob Salvo
writes
Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing


Exactly!
Bob

Well yes, and no. I think that the problem a lot of people have is that
they are taught spinning in simple benign aeroplanes that you have to
TELL to spin and come out with no encouragement.

Whilst this is good for the basics I truly believe that train and train
and train to do the harder stuff in aeroplanes (with appropriate
guidance and instructors) that have the capability to bite is the only
way to improve peoples' capabilities to the stage that they can handle
bad situations.

Too many people think they can deal with nasty situations because they
learnt (for instance) spinning in a K13 or 150 or similar. Several
years ago we had a group of power pilots, of the normal sport aviation
type - nothing extreme, turn up for some trial flights in gliders.
Several of them asked to be shown some spins and a suitable instructor
took them round. They were totally disorientated and didn't know what
to do. They had gone through all of the current training at the time
and as far as we know were good pilots.

The person in this thread who said that the training itself may be the
issue rather than doing training is, I believe, right. The old adage
"train hard fight easy" is true just about everywhere, the point is
"train hard"

As to the statement above. Yes, as soon as you know you are in a spin,
get out of it, if you can. However, learning all the other stuff
properly can only help.

Cheers

Robin

A very low hours pilot who has had enough shocks to realise how much he
has to learn.
--
Robin Birch
  #8  
Old January 23rd 04, 11:42 PM
SNOOP
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Default

Folks would like to plod through life thinking that they will
recognize the good old nose up, stall, kick rudder, this must be the
entry to a spin, I can recover from this. Who wouldn't.

The one we like to pound into their memory is the nose level on the
horizon, cross control (over shooting the final)feed in top aileron,
and away you go into the nicest spin entry. Recognize it and recover.
We don't need to let it wind up either.

Again a good cirriculum lets you do this training with a high degree
of safety, if the instructor is properly trained.


Stewart Kissel wrote in message ...
OK JJ, I'll bite (sorta)-

With spin entry training being done so often in benign-handling
ships, what in fact are we teaching/learning?

'Pull back, Pull back, okay kick in full rudder'-and
the thinking might go-'Gee, how does anyone get into
a spin, this is way to much work'

How does this apply the first time someone gets in
a ship that may fall off on its own?



At 18:24 23 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote:
It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good
controversies (this year)
so here goes:

In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump
training to all aircrew
personnel. They soon learned that they were getting
twice the injuries in
training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs.
They decided to stop
the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit
deployment, etc training.

So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its
been reining Puchaz's, Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin
entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing?

JJ Sinclair


With three times as many fatalities in training than
flying (helicopters),
one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations
during
helicopter training as well.

  #9  
Old January 24th 04, 01:33 AM
John Shelton
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Posts: n/a
Default

That's the one that would get me. Low and slow, sneaking over a fence
needing juuuuuuust liiiiiitle rudder to line up. I think an instructor can
pound into your head NOT to do that, how to check yourself, and let you
practice your stupidity. On my own as a test pilot, I will certainly get
killed.



"SNOOP" wrote in message
om...
Folks would like to plod through life thinking that they will
recognize the good old nose up, stall, kick rudder, this must be the
entry to a spin, I can recover from this. Who wouldn't.

The one we like to pound into their memory is the nose level on the
horizon, cross control (over shooting the final)feed in top aileron,
and away you go into the nicest spin entry. Recognize it and recover.
We don't need to let it wind up either.

Again a good cirriculum lets you do this training with a high degree
of safety, if the instructor is properly trained.




  #10  
Old January 24th 04, 04:09 AM
F1y1n
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Posts: n/a
Default

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:401166ad$1@darkstar...
In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote:
It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this year)
so here goes:

In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all aircrew
personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in
training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to stop
the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc training.

So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining Puchaz's, Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing?

JJ Sinclair


With three times as many fatalities in training than flying (helicopters),
one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations during
helicopter training as well.


I once asked an instructor to demonstrate a spin in a two-seat
aircraft I was transitioning into. His answer: "I'd rather not to."
After some discussion he absolutely refused to do any spins,
apparently out of fear. In my opinion this guy should have been
stripped of his FAA ratings. Somebody who hasn't spun a glider and
recovered should not be allowed to carry passangers, much less to
instruct. A spin is a well-behaved, predictable flight regime that is
documented in the aircraft manual (of most gliders). Somebody unable
or unwilling to enter this flight regime is incompetent and can not
call himself a pilot in my opinion.
 




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