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Glider vs. Power Pattern Bank Angle?



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 10th 04, 09:59 PM
Jim Vincent
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Default Glider vs. Power Pattern Bank Angle?

In power, they're taught to fly patterns with very little bank angle, whereas
in gliders we're taught to bank at about 45 degrees or so. I well understand
the rationale for banking steeply in gliders, but why are power pilots taught
to do shallow turns?

TIA for the explanation.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ
illspam
  #2  
Old June 11th 04, 02:08 AM
BTIZ
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standard rate turns for most light general aviation is about 15 degrees of
bank... up to 30 degrees is considered the norm for power aircraft..

gliders fly closer in and tighter patterns.. so 45 degrees makes more
since.. can't say I've paid much attention to estimate the bank angle...
granted I fly the tow plane (Pawnee) in the same ground track pattern and
use 45 degrees of bank..

BT

"Jim Vincent" wrote in message
...
In power, they're taught to fly patterns with very little bank angle,

whereas
in gliders we're taught to bank at about 45 degrees or so. I well

understand
the rationale for banking steeply in gliders, but why are power pilots

taught
to do shallow turns?

TIA for the explanation.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ
illspam



  #4  
Old June 11th 04, 05:50 AM
Bruce Greeff
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Tom Seim wrote:
illspam (Jim Vincent) wrote in message ...

In power, they're taught to fly patterns with very little bank angle, whereas
in gliders we're taught to bank at about 45 degrees or so. I well understand
the rationale for banking steeply in gliders, but why are power pilots taught
to do shallow turns?



The reason is, actually, pretty simple: power planes have god-awfull
visibility; if you bank too steeply you lose visual contact with a key
part of the pattern. This is something to keep in mind while flying in
the vacinity of power planes: if you can't see the cockpit, they can't
see you. In general, the best policy is to assume that they can't see
you and to act accordingly.

Tom Seim
Richland, WA

More to the point - most of the time they will not have seen you, even if you
can see the whites of their eyes. Power pilots are not used to looking for
little slivers of white, and don't see what they don't expect. Even if they are
looking for you, which is often not the case.

We have a plague of low time power guys boring inexorably toward their selected
GPS turnpoint. In the far corner of the airfileld, after crossing three active
runways. Many of them are heads down watching the GPS, and don't even see the
winch or gliders. I am convinced some of them never see the airport they are
turning over...

That said I have also had a couple of them see me when I can't find their C172
sized lump. Can be embarassing to realise how easily you can miss something that
big, even when you know it is near, and even the general direction.
  #5  
Old June 11th 04, 06:26 AM
Jim Vincent
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The reason is, actually, pretty simple: power planes have god-awfull
visibility; if you bank too steeply you lose visual contact with a key
part of the pattern.


Tom, that makes sense to me for a high wing plane, but not for a low wing
plane. My friend had been taught never to bank too much in the pattern because
of the stall risk, I think. Yet us glider guiders are taught exactly the
opposite. Maybe since we fly the pattern so much closer to stall speed?


Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ
illspam
  #6  
Old June 11th 04, 01:47 PM
Brian Case
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2 more reasons for the shallow bank turns in power aircraft.

One Valid reason is that many power pilot carry passengers and it is
just more comfortable (less Scary) for the passangers to make
shallower turns.

Second, unfortunatly some of the procedures for making large patterns
with Power have trickled down from the Military and Airlines and have
started to be taught as standard for small single engine aircraft.
While these procedures are appropriate and the safest way to operate
Larger Turbine aircraft it is simply not applicable and can be
dangerous to operate small single engine aircraft this way.

I teach that a 30 degree bank turn should be typical (Vary as
appropriate) for turns in the Pattern for power aircraft This is a
good compromise for comfortable turns and reasonably small pattern
size.

Interestingly Many Pilots (Instructors included) don't seem to realize
that many (not all) aircraft actually are much harder to stall in a
steep turn than a shallow turn. This is because unless the CG is near
or past the aft CG Limit the elevator does not have enough power to
hold the turn and stall the wing. This is somewhat supported by fact
that most stall spin accidents are not initated from a steep turn but
rather from shallow skidded turns. Generally it is actually safer to
use a steeper turn.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

illspam (Jim Vincent) wrote in message ...
The reason is, actually, pretty simple: power planes have god-awfull
visibility; if you bank too steeply you lose visual contact with a key
part of the pattern.


Tom, that makes sense to me for a high wing plane, but not for a low wing
plane. My friend had been taught never to bank too much in the pattern because
of the stall risk, I think. Yet us glider guiders are taught exactly the
opposite. Maybe since we fly the pattern so much closer to stall speed?


Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ
illspam
  #10  
Old June 11th 04, 06:20 PM
Skip Guimond
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The PTS for the SEL rating requires the demonstration of steep turns,
and this maneuver is flown on virtually every check ride. I believe
that the main reason for "gentle" turns is a cultural and training
issue. Power training almost always considers the passenger in the
aircraft--something which is normally not a major issue in soaring.

Frankly, most true passengers are not comfortable in bank angles
greater than 30 degrees. A second MAJOR issue is the continuing
training toward the instrument rating. In actual instrument
conditions turns are normally accomplished at "standard" rate--a
gentle bank. This provides less chance for the pilot to loose control
while flying only with reference to instruments.

An often heard comment from the CFI during the training of a
commercial student is that when he gets his first commercial job his
performance will be judged by the smoothness of his landings
(regardless of winds, etc) and not spilling the president's drink in
the back.

Just some thoughts--

Skip Guimond
 




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