What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to a glider?

I have to agree with Bob on the 2 stroke reliability factor.
I also grew up riding 2 strokes in the California desert as a kid.
We had a saying, " 2 strokes run the best, 15 seconds before they seize up"
I had first hand experience with that saying many times.
The newer Solo and Rotax engines seem to be much better, but every time I see a 2 stroke motorglider take off, I watch it, to see what might happen.
Nick
T

Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20 years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs. Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows with the differential in the price of a motorglider. As far as propulsion type, I don't particularly care for the limited battery capacity due to poor energy density compared to fuel. And don't kid yourself that batteries are completely safe. Any energy storage system has risks of 'dumping' that energy in an enthusiastic manner. Everybody screeching about getting rid of oil & gas had better do some research on what it takes to produce a wind turbine. (Hint: They don't grow from magic beans.) And you might not have noticed, but there are NO solar-powered solar cell factories. And the Tesla S 100 kWh battery (1,375 lbs.) stores the energy equivalent of 2.1 gallons of AvGas.

In my younger days I burnt up more BSA motorcycles than Kawasaki
2-strokers. Just sayin'... Oh, and my self-launcher uses a 4-cylinder
Rotax 4-stroker.
Dan
5J


On 2/6/21 7:40 AM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
I have to agree with Bob on the 2 stroke reliability factor.
I also grew up riding 2 strokes in the California desert as a kid.
We had a saying, " 2 strokes run the best, 15 seconds before they seize up"
I had first hand experience with that saying many times.
The newer Solo and Rotax engines seem to be much better, but every time I see a 2 stroke motorglider take off, I watch it, to see what might happen.
Nick
T

Love it, Mark!

Exploring the desert at low level in our gyro plane, I've discovered a
wind turbine burial ground. I doubt they walk there like elephants, so
I imagine a lot of diesel fuel is burned hauling those cut up blades
there and dumping them.

Dan
5J


On 2/6/21 8:05 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
(Hint: They don't grow from magic beans.)

Mark Mocho wrote on 2/6/2021 7:05 AM:
Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20 years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs. Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows with the differential in the price of a motorglider.

Paying for tows isn't what bothers people that buy self-launching motorgliders. We do it
because there aren't any tows where or when we want to fly. A secondary reason, and one a
sustainer can fix, is getting home reliably. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best one
we've ever owned (it's number 5) because it always gets home :^)

It's interesting technically to talk about energy density of gas vs batteries, but it's
irrelevant to the glider pilot, who wants a good takeoff climb rate, enough range to get home
after misjudging the weather, simple operation, and low maintenance. Increasingly, it's the
electric gliders that can provide these features.

What stops most people from owning a motorglider is cost, which has always been true, even
before jet and electric gliders came along. The factories are selling more powered sailplanes
than unpowered, so the percentage of powered gliders is increasing, and they are selling an
increasing number of electric powered gliders, so I tend to agree with Bob. Still, I think it's
a long time to "fringe" status for unpowered gliders.

A powered glider has much more potential utility than a towed glider, making it easier for
partners in a glider to get all the flying they want. The simplicity of electric glider
operation makes it easier to find suitable partners, so I'm hoping (and expecting) partnerships
will increase significantly, and increase the number of people that want to fly gliders, and
retain those that might otherwise drop out.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 8:35:50 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mark Mocho wrote on 2/6/2021 7:05 AM:
Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20 years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs. Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows with the differential in the price of a motorglider.
Paying for tows isn't what bothers people that buy self-launching motorgliders. We do it
because there aren't any tows where or when we want to fly. A secondary reason, and one a
sustainer can fix, is getting home reliably. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best one
we've ever owned (it's number 5) because it always gets home :^)

It's interesting technically to talk about energy density of gas vs batteries, but it's
irrelevant to the glider pilot, who wants a good takeoff climb rate, enough range to get home
after misjudging the weather, simple operation, and low maintenance. Increasingly, it's the
electric gliders that can provide these features.

What stops most people from owning a motorglider is cost, which has always been true, even
before jet and electric gliders came along. The factories are selling more powered sailplanes
than unpowered, so the percentage of powered gliders is increasing, and they are selling an
increasing number of electric powered gliders, so I tend to agree with Bob. Still, I think it's
a long time to "fringe" status for unpowered gliders.

A powered glider has much more potential utility than a towed glider, making it easier for
partners in a glider to get all the flying they want. The simplicity of electric glider
operation makes it easier to find suitable partners, so I'm hoping (and expecting) partnerships
will increase significantly, and increase the number of people that want to fly gliders, and
retain those that might otherwise drop out.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

And even if tows are available, they may not be on the days you want to fly, or you will have to wait an additional hour when a "scenic" flight shows up 5 minutes before your scheduled flight. And there are many sites you may want to fly that don't have tows of any kind. Even then, if all goes well you may be waiting hours in a long tow lines. have seen the gravity pilots show up at the crack of dawn to water and position their gliders so they would be at the head of the line. I also saw one group of 1-26 pilots get their collective noses totally bent out of shape when they showed up at one of our meets (which included some towed gliders) - unannounced - and we told them that we would provide them tows, but after the participant gliders got launched.

Tom

My gliding buddy has a '27 and we like to go on safari. That's
difficult unless we can find a place with tows. To date we've gone to
Salida, CO and Nephi and Logan, UT. He doesn't want to buy a
self-launcher yet so he's looking to borrow or lease one.

Dan
5J

On 2/6/21 9:35 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mark Mocho wrote on 2/6/2021 7:05 AM:
Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into
a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders
and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20
years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered
ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch
endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet
powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the
challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs.
Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows
with the differential in the price of a motorglider.

Paying for tows isn't what bothers people that buy self-launching
motorgliders. We do it because there aren't any tows where or when we
want to fly. A secondary reason, and one a sustainer can fix, is getting
home reliably. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best one we've ever
owned (it's number 5) because it always gets home :^)

It's interesting technically to talk about energy density of gas vs
batteries, but it's irrelevant to the glider pilot, who wants a good
takeoff climb rate, enough range to get home after misjudging the
weather, simple operation, and low maintenance. Increasingly, it's the
electric gliders that can provide these features.

What stops most people from owning a motorglider is cost, which has
always been true, even before jet and electric gliders came along. The
factories are selling more powered sailplanes than unpowered, so the
percentage of powered gliders is increasing, and they are selling an
increasing number of electric powered gliders, so I tend to agree with
Bob. Still, I think it's a long time to "fringe" status for unpowered
gliders.

A powered glider has much more potential utility than a towed glider,
making it easier for partners in a glider to get all the flying they
want. The simplicity of electric glider operation makes it easier to
find suitable partners, so I'm hoping (and expecting) partnerships will
increase significantly, and increase the number of people that want to
fly gliders, and retain those that might otherwise drop out.

Dan Marotta wrote on 2/6/2021 4:01 PM:
My gliding buddy has a '27 and we like to go on safari.* That's difficult unless we can find a
place with tows.* To date we've gone to Salida, CO and Nephi and Logan, UT.* He doesn't want to
buy a self-launcher yet so he's looking to borrow or lease one.

Dan
5J

Stemme tow hook retrofit? Then you'd both begin soaring at the same time! Or, or Auto tow him,
then jump into the Stemme?

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 4:01:46 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
My gliding buddy has a '27 and we like to go on safari. That's
difficult unless we can find a place with tows. To date we've gone to
Salida, CO and Nephi and Logan, UT. He doesn't want to buy a
self-launcher yet so he's looking to borrow or lease one.

Dan
5J
On 2/6/21 9:35 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mark Mocho wrote on 2/6/2021 7:05 AM:
Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into
a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders
and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20
years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered
ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch
endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet
powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the
challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs.
Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows
with the differential in the price of a motorglider.

Paying for tows isn't what bothers people that buy self-launching
motorgliders. We do it because there aren't any tows where or when we
want to fly. A secondary reason, and one a sustainer can fix, is getting
home reliably. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best one we've ever
owned (it's number 5) because it always gets home :^)

It's interesting technically to talk about energy density of gas vs
batteries, but it's irrelevant to the glider pilot, who wants a good
takeoff climb rate, enough range to get home after misjudging the
weather, simple operation, and low maintenance. Increasingly, it's the
electric gliders that can provide these features.

What stops most people from owning a motorglider is cost, which has
always been true, even before jet and electric gliders came along. The
factories are selling more powered sailplanes than unpowered, so the
percentage of powered gliders is increasing, and they are selling an
increasing number of electric powered gliders, so I tend to agree with
Bob. Still, I think it's a long time to "fringe" status for unpowered
gliders.

A powered glider has much more potential utility than a towed glider,
making it easier for partners in a glider to get all the flying they
want. The simplicity of electric glider operation makes it easier to
find suitable partners, so I'm hoping (and expecting) partnerships will
increase significantly, and increase the number of people that want to
fly gliders, and retain those that might otherwise drop out.


He can always buy a towplane and hire a towpilot. This shouldn't cost more than $5-10k plus the cost of the towplane (which he could sell after the safari).

Tom

On 2/6/21 8:05 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:

Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20 years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs. Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows with the differential in the price of a motorglider. As far as propulsion type, I don't particularly care for the limited battery capacity due to poor energy density compared to fuel. And don't kid yourself that batteries are completely safe. Any energy storage system has risks of 'dumping' that energy in an enthusiastic manner. Everybody screeching about getting rid of oil & gas had better do some research on what it takes to produce a wind turbine. (Hint: They don't grow from magic beans.) And you might not have noticed, but there are NO solar-powered solar cell factories. And the Tesla S 100 kWh battery (1,375 lbs.) stores the energy equivalent of 2.1 gallons of AvGas.



Perfect solution would be a battery-powered winch. Hook a bunch of
batteries up to a motor, hook the motor up to a drum. How hard could
that be? No folding props to deal with, no certification, no annual
inspections, no insurance, no skilled labor required to run it. Plus
you don't have to carry a load of undumpable ballast around with you all
the time.