preferrred bank angle indicator?

Yep keeping the wings level thats the ticket and TruTrak
is a pretty inexpensive solution. It does respond very
quickly to bank, I mean turn rate (so confusing). Since
most sailplane users will not normally fly with it
on a big plus is its start up speed. Future buyers
should be aware that it doesn't come with a on/off
switch and be sure to ask for the special electrical
connector as you will have trouble finding one anywhere
else.

I'd endorse everything that others have said about avoiding entering cloud
if your glider isn't suitably equipped and/or you aren't trained to fly in
IMC.

However the best intentions sometimes go astray and there's always the
chance you may inadvertently enter cloud. In these circumstances a good
standby plan is to gently open the airbrakes and - this is very important -
let go of the controls. So long as you are trimmed for circling most gliders
flown stick free with the brakes open will just adopt a gentle descending
turn at moderate speed and this will get you out of cloud - eventually. You
can try this, away from cloud of course, and doing so may give you
confidence that it will work if you ever need to do it for real.

David Starer


"Matt Herron Jr." wrote in message
ups.com...
As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
clouds alive.

Thanks for any advice!

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:

Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
clouds?

Yes, of course you can keep the wings level with the TrueTrak... as long
as you remember that it's a turn indicator and not a bank indicator. I
just don't like its display. (For a reason, but this is my personal
opinion.)

You may ask: what's the fuss, as long as I fly coordinated, turn and bank
are related, aren't they?. Well, up to 45 degrees, yes. Bank steeper, and
the turn rate will diminish again, reaching zero at a (theoretical) bank
angle of 90 degrees. Now, bank angles of more than 45 degrees are not that
uncommon in gliders, so you must understand this behaviour and keep it in
your mind. The interface of the TrueTrak is not very helpful in doing so,
as your original post ("TrueTrak gives a bank angle") illustrates.

A last note: I've never actually flown with the TrueTrak, so I don't know
how fast it responds. As gliders are pretty slippery ships, any turn
indicator with less than instant response is useless, so check this.

Stefan

I agree with Stephan. The "Needle & Ball" turn indicator presentation is
far more honest aboout its limitations. In turbulence it's not unusual to
get bounced into a steep bank without any rate of turn at all in which case
a device that only indicates turn won't show anything until it's too late.
(Although the ball will drop toward the low wing.)

In smooth air, a turn indicator is fine for "Partial panel" flying but when
things get rough, a good attitude indicator is invaluable.

All instruments have their limitations and it's folly to try to use them
without an understanding of those limitations. That's one reason why an
instrument rating is particularly difficult to obtain. It's also why those
of us with an instrument ticket get nervous when we read of non- instrument
rated pilots wanting to install a turn indicator as a "safety device".

Until you are rated, current and equipped, stay out of clouds. Otherwise,
it's like playing Russian Roulette with an automatic.

Bill

Until you are rated, current and equipped, stay out
of clouds. Otherwise, it's like playing Russian Roulette
with an automatic.

Bill


Well there you go, problem solved.
Da, why didn't we think of that?

Just to make sure I understand how this instrument would respond...

1) wings are level, TruTrak agrees
2) I hit turbulence and wings are thrown into 30 deg. bank with no yaw,
TruTrak reads level
3) 30 deg. bank causes glider to start turning. TruTrak catches up and
shows 30 deg. bank
4) in uncoordinated turns, TruTrak would show incorrect bank angle?
(not sure about this one)

Matt

David Starer wrote:
I'd endorse everything that others have said about avoiding entering cloud
if your glider isn't suitably equipped and/or you aren't trained to fly in
IMC.

However the best intentions sometimes go astray and there's always the
chance you may inadvertently enter cloud. In these circumstances a good
standby plan is to gently open the airbrakes and - this is very important -
let go of the controls. So long as you are trimmed for circling most gliders
flown stick free with the brakes open will just adopt a gentle descending
turn at moderate speed and this will get you out of cloud - eventually. You
can try this, away from cloud of course, and doing so may give you
confidence that it will work if you ever need to do it for real.

Be sure to include some "upsets" in your testing, as any cloud that can
suck you into the bottom will have plenty of turbulence to provide real
upsets. Some gliders will not settle back into a benign spiral after an
upset.

Wave clouds can supply some turbulence, too.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:

Just to make sure I understand how this instrument would respond...

4 x yes.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:

Just to make sure I understand how this instrument would respond...


Matt writes:

3) 30 deg. bank causes glider to start turning. TruTrak catches up and
shows 30 deg. bank.

Stefan replies:
4 x yes.

Is that really right? How does this instrument know the bank angle?
Using the calculator at

http://www.soarcsa.org/thinking_page..._rad_knots.htm

I get these figures:

* 100 knots, 15 degrees bank, 2 minute turn indication
* 50 knots, 15 degree bank, 1 minute turn indication

So, for the same bank angle, won't the "bank indication" (which I think
is really turn rate indication) be different?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Matt writes:

3) 30 deg. bank causes glider to start turning. TruTrak catches up and
shows 30 deg. bank.

Stefan replies:
4 x yes.

Is that really right? How does this instrument know the bank angle?
Using the calculator at

http://www.soarcsa.org/thinking_page..._rad_knots.htm

I get these figures:

* 100 knots, 15 degrees bank, 2 minute turn indication
* 50 knots, 15 degree bank, 1 minute turn indication

So, for the same bank angle, won't the "bank indication" (which I think
is really turn rate indication) be different?

I don't know about the numbers, but my "1 minute turn" TruTrak seems to
exactly match the actual horizon at thermalling speeds.

At 20:54 26 May 2006, Greg Arnold wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Matt writes:

3) 30 deg. bank causes glider to start turning. TruTrak
catches up and
shows 30 deg. bank.

Stefan replies:

4 x yes.

Is that really right? How does this instrument know
the bank angle?
Using the calculator at

http://www.soarcsa.org/thinking_page...turn_rad_knots
.htm

I get these figures:

* 100 knots, 15 degrees bank, 2 minute turn indication
* 50 knots, 15 degree bank, 1 minute turn indication

So, for the same bank angle, won't the 'bank indication'
(which I think
is really turn rate indication) be different?

I don't know about the numbers, but my '1 minute turn'
TruTrak seems to
exactly match the actual horizon at thermalling speeds.



The TruTrak T&B indicator simply shows when the glider
is turning which exactly what you want should you find
yourself in a cloud. You want to be able to select
a course and fly straight. On my glider it shows a
turn whenever the glider is turning which in most instances
is also when it is banked. The only time it can be
banked but not be turning is in a slight bank with
enough opposite rudder applied to fly in a straight
line but most glider pilots would know (should) whats
happening from the tell tail. In my glider in a bank
steeper than about 10 degrees it will turn regardless
of rudder position as there isn't enough rudder authority
to prevent it.
The purpose of using one in a cloud isn't to be able
to perform perfectly coordinated turns but to be able
to fly reasonably straight when you want to and this
instrument can do a lot to assist. Of course it won't
fix everything like if the turbulence is bouncing your
head against the canopy or a bird breaks through and
blinds you but nothing is perfect.