preferrred bank angle indicator?

I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated
before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some
before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute in
the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate,
having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making poor
decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all.

bumper

"Matt Herron Jr." wrote in message
ups.com...
As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
clouds alive.

Thanks for any advice!

In article ,
bumper writes
I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated
before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some
before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute in
the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate,
having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making poor
decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all.

bumper

Is the instrument training you might get from a flying school in
any way comparable with using a cloud to climb a bit higher?

People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?

Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
vertical development should be quite innocuous.

Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK.

--
Mike Lindsay

Mike Lindsay wrote:
People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?

Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
vertical development should be quite innocuous.

Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK.

I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud
with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft
and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI.

My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I
had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently
subsided from the cloud.

Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but
can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the
wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the
speed back under control I'm in a turn again.

I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take
a lot of practice.

Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never
tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope:

1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone
requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention
means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control.
If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up
for long.

2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the
canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw.

3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for
thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach
that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers
including Derek Piggott).

4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and
this is I think my problem with straightening up.

If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it
on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible
speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I
might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the
airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster
to happen.

Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If
anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they
are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice
lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the
manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even
so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered
this have all my admiration for their skills.

Not only no, but heck no!

Instrument training is relatively intense, with lots to learn and practice,
including "unusual attitude" recovery with only partial panel (artificial
horizon or AI covered, with only Turn Coordinator). The TC is not as stable
in turbulence as a needle and ball (or TruTrac), as the gyro is at an angle
to give yaw info - - this is why many pilots prefer a needle and ball as to
the TC as back up.

Bottom line, without adequate training and practice and proper instruments,
if you are planning to go IMC, please remember that pilots with much more
experience than you and I have either died or had to save themselves by
bailing out when their spars snapped like twigs.

bumper

"Mike Lindsay" wrote in message
...
In article ,
bumper writes
I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated
before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some
before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute
in
the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate,
having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making
poor
decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all.

bumper

Is the instrument training you might get from a flying school in
any way comparable with using a cloud to climb a bit higher?

People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?

Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
vertical development should be quite innocuous.

Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK.

--
Mike Lindsay

Chris Reed wrote:
Mike Lindsay wrote:
People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?

Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
vertical development should be quite innocuous.
Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in
the UK.
I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud
with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft
and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI.

My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I
had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently
subsided from the cloud.

Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but
can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the
wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the
speed back under control I'm in a turn again.

I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take
a lot of practice.

Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never
tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope:

1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone
requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention
means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control.
If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up
for long.

2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the
canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw.

3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for
thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach
that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers
including Derek Piggott).

4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and
this is I think my problem with straightening up.

If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it
on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible
speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I
might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the
airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster
to happen.

Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If
anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they
are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice
lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the
manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even
so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered
this have all my admiration for their skills.

And remember, Chris is talking about intentionally entering a cloud at
thermalling speed, and in relatively smooth air, not the turbulence
often associated with 10+ knot lift. Imagine how much more difficult it
would be for the pilot unintentionally sucked into a cloud, and likely
going 90-100 knots as he enters. My advice to the original poster
continues to be prevention is a far better tactic than a T&B, but if he
wants to build some blind-flying skills with an instructor - go for it!
Just don't imagine you can successfully use a T&B otherwise if you are
ever sucked into a cloud.

For the inexperienced (with a T&B) pilot caught above clouds while wave
flying, a T&B might actually work out: usually, the pilot has some
warning, he is already flying straight and level, and plans to keep it
that way. He still needs to practice before hand.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

In article , Eric Greenwell
writes
Chris Reed wrote:
Mike Lindsay wrote:
People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing
any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and
have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself?

Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even
something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of
vertical development should be quite innocuous.
Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in
the UK.
I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud
with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft
and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI.

My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I
had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently
subsided from the cloud.

Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but
can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the
wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the
speed back under control I'm in a turn again.

I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take
a lot of practice.

Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never
tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope:

1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone
requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention
means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control.
If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up
for long.

2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the
canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw.

3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for
thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach
that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers
including Derek Piggott).

4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and
this is I think my problem with straightening up.

If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it
on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible
speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I
might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the
airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster
to happen.

Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If
anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they
are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice
lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the
manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even
so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered
this have all my admiration for their skills.

And remember, Chris is talking about intentionally entering a cloud at
thermalling speed, and in relatively smooth air, not the turbulence
often associated with 10+ knot lift. Imagine how much more difficult it
would be for the pilot unintentionally sucked into a cloud, and likely
going 90-100 knots as he enters. My advice to the original poster
continues to be prevention is a far better tactic than a T&B, but if he
wants to build some blind-flying skills with an instructor - go for it!
Just don't imagine you can successfully use a T&B otherwise if you are
ever sucked into a cloud.

For the inexperienced (with a T&B) pilot caught above clouds while wave
flying, a T&B might actually work out: usually, the pilot has some
warning, he is already flying straight and level, and plans to keep it
that way. He still needs to practice before hand.

If you fly where there are 10 knotters regularly, you probably don't
need to cloud fly. Lots of gliders this side has A/Hs which makes life a
bit easier, although you do have to believe the instruments, not your
ears, which might well be telling you something different, especially
when you roll out of your thermal turn.
--
Mike Lindsay

In article ,
bumper writes
Not only no, but heck no!

Instrument training is relatively intense, with lots to learn and practice,
including "unusual attitude" recovery with only partial panel (artificial
horizon or AI covered, with only Turn Coordinator). The TC is not as stable
in turbulence as a needle and ball (or TruTrac), as the gyro is at an angle
to give yaw info - - this is why many pilots prefer a needle and ball as to
the TC as back up.

Bottom line, without adequate training and practice and proper instruments,
if you are planning to go IMC, please remember that pilots with much more
experience than you and I have either died or had to save themselves by
bailing out when their spars snapped like twigs.

bumper

So, what would you regard as 'proper instruments'?
--
Mike Lindsay

I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread
to save any new followers time.

Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud
flying

1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse.
2) You should fly in clouds for practice.
3) Special training is required to survive a cloud
flight.
4) You can train yourself.
5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight.
6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud.

Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical
example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies
somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however.

I'll tell you what I think to add to the confusion.

I believe if you want to avoid clouds that you can do so with foresight:

If conditions are very strong indeed, don't go up to cloudbase and if you
hit extreme lift, turn away and use full spoiler and highish speed to keep
away.

If you have messed up and end up in cloud then get as a minimum a T&S. A
cheap refurbished unit will be fine. Practise out of cloud and you will see
you can use it to roughly fly straight very easily, you will be able to get
out of cloud by flying straight with full spoilers.

If you want to fly in cloud and enjoy it, as I do, then get a horizon. It
is pretty easy to fly on one and an order of magnitude easier than using a
T&S for thermalling. A T&S gives you turn rate only but as we know, bank
angle at a given speed is what gives you turn rate and that is what is
important to monitor. The horizon is better at this than the often
invisible real horizon out of cloud and I find I can fly more accurately
with it in cloud than out of cloud. I use a T&S as a back up for cloud
flying and a GPS to monitor headings to note the best bit of lift and to
reposition in the cloud. Also to come out on the right heading. The GPS is
a back up turn indicator too.


"Gary Evans" wrote in message
...
I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread
to save any new followers time.

Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud
flying

1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse.
2) You should fly in clouds for practice.
3) Special training is required to survive a cloud
flight.
4) You can train yourself.
5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight.
6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud.

Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical
example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies
somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however.

Gary Evans wrote:
I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread
to save any new followers time.

Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud
flying

I'd say close but not quite accurate:

1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse.

Clearly not, because pilots do it and survive. I'd say, to fly in cloud
without proper planning, instruments and knowledge of what you're doing
is very risky indeed. However, letting down through a cloud layer via a
benign spiral (if you know there's plenty of clear air beneath) is
likely to be comparatively low risk.

2) You should fly in clouds for practice.

For intentional cloud flying, my limited experience and more extensive
reading tells me you need to keep in practice. Unintentional entry I
wouldn't practice for, but I'd have an emergency plan (airbrakes out,
trim back to best L/D or thereabouts, and don't mess with the controls).

Many glider pilots can't practice because cloud flying is generally
illegal in their countries.

3) Special training is required to survive a cloud
flight.

Not to survive (see 2 above), but to fly intentionally and successfully
in cloud you need either training or an effective self-teaching
programme (see next point).

4) You can train yourself.

In theory you can - my self-training programme is derived from the
writings of pilots, some of whom who taught themselves. I can't say yet
whether it's a successful programme, or whether I'll carry on cloud
flying if I do manage to teach myself successfully. The only thing I'm
comfortable about is that the way I'm approaching this is not
excessively risky.

5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight.

Definitely. The acknowledged minimum is bank indicator (e.g. T&S) and
ASI. From previous posts, Tru-Trak is not a true bank indicator, which
means that its limitations need to be understood when using it.

An artificial horizon is clearly easier because it gives you bank and
pitch simultaneously. However, as the earlier poster who actually uses
one points out, you need a T&S as backup in case the horizon fails. This
is why I'm starting with T&S/ASI alone - the backup's no good to me if I
can't use it. My reading suggests that relying on a horizon alone (which
is effectively what you're doing, even if you have a T&S fitted, if you
can't use it) is riskier than I care for.

6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud.

Definitely no, if you mean horizon/T&S/horizon. Other instruments
(except, I understand, a Bohli compass in the hands of an expert) are
little or no use for maintaining control in cloud.

Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical
example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies
somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however.

Like all RAS postings, you get a mix of experience and hearsay. Looking
back over the thread, only four posters (including me) stated they had
any experience of flying in cloud, though from the comments of some of
the others they might also have done this.

I tend to give rather more weight to postings which come from the
pilot's own experience, which is as good a way as any other of sorting
the wheat from the chaff.

My advice to the original poster, from someone with approximately 1 more
hour/6 flights in total cloud flying than he has, is to save his money
on the Tru-Trak. Practice the benign spiral instead, as you never intend
to fly in cloud intentionally. My hour has taken me to the stage where I
am not completely out of control in cloud, but definitely not fully in
control. All this in the easiest of cloud - intentional entry, gentle
lift, little turbulence. Caught out by a wave gap closing does not
strike me as the ideal conditions to begin your own training programme.