Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?

ubject: Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?
From: "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Date: 5/5/04 12:18 AM Pacific

Walter is clearly not up on the USAAF use of ground based radio
aids in 1944 and 1945.

So Walter presumably believes the attacks on Switzerland were deliberate.

I am no longer subscribed to this NG but I do look in now and again and caught
this post. Walter is right. The attack on Switzerland was a deliberate mission
to take out the I.W.C plant in Schaffhausen in Northern Switzerland. They were
producing fuses and timers for German torpedoes. And the "lost" bomb group that
had an "accidental" release over the factory put it out of operation. We
"apologised" but it was made known to the Swiss that if that factory ever was
put back in operation we might just have another "accidental" release. All
of us who were flying at the time knew of this and had a good laugh over it and
a ":well done": as well. It is all detailed in a book titled, " The Day we
Bombed Switzerland" by the group CO who led the B-24 raid that day. I think you
owe Walt an apology.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
ubject: Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?
From: "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Date: 5/5/04 12:18 AM Pacific

Walter is clearly not up on the USAAF use of ground based radio
aids in 1944 and 1945.

So Walter presumably believes the attacks on Switzerland were deliberate.

I am no longer subscribed to this NG but I do look in now and again and
caught
this post. Walter is right. The attack on Switzerland was a deliberate
mission
to take out the I.W.C plant in Schaffhausen in Northern Switzerland. They
were
producing fuses and timers for German torpedoes. And the "lost" bomb group
that
had an "accidental" release over the factory put it out of operation. We
"apologised" but it was made known to the Swiss that if that factory
ever was
put back in operation we might just have another "accidental" release.
All
of us who were flying at the time knew of this and had a good laugh over
it and
a ":well done": as well. It is all detailed in a book titled, " The Day we
Bombed Switzerland" by the group CO who led the B-24 raid that day. I
think you
owe Walt an apology.


I note from the book review that central to the story is
that the bombing was accidental and the story of the aircrew's
court martial. This does not appear to be the the story of the
Schaffhausen raid but the attack on Zurich in March 1945

The story of the Zurich raid is available on line at

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...helmreich1.htm

The crews believed they were bombing Freiburg, they hit
Zurich, weather was bad with 100% cloud cover and
they had 'fixed' their target using radar and gee.

The US paid reparations to the Swiss Government
and formally apologised for the error

Keith

In article , Keith Willshaw keithnospam@kwillsh
aw.demon.co.uk writes

SNIP


I note from the book review that central to the story is
that the bombing was accidental and the story of the aircrew's
court martial. This does not appear to be the the story of the
Schaffhausen raid but the attack on Zurich in March 1945

The story of the Zurich raid is available on line at

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...helmreich1.htm

The crews believed they were bombing Freiburg, they hit
Zurich, weather was bad with 100% cloud cover and
they had 'fixed' their target using radar and gee.

The US paid reparations to the Swiss Government
and formally apologised for the error

Keith


I do not have a comprehensive history of Swiss-German relations during
the war, but I have gleaned that when war began, the Germans tried to
demonstrate to the Swiss that they had better play ball. The Swiss
answer was to fortify the approaches from Germany and install the most
sophisticated fire control for the artillery they had dug into the
mountains. (Effectively a ranged pantograph system - if a tank was
reported to be in a field they could shoot at it in thick fog and hit
it). And a German officer who remarked that Germany could attack
Switzerland with twice as many men got the reply that that would mean
each Swiss soldier would have to shoot twice.

And the Swiss did supply sophisticated devices to both sides - par for
the course for the 20th century - Sir Basil Zaharoff supplied arms to
both the British and the Boers during the South African War and was
decorated by both sides...

And the Swiss did shoot down German aircraft sent by Goering to
'demonstrate' over Swiss territory.

A good start, but it seemed it slipped later on, when Switzerland
supplied Germany with raw materials, allowed passage between Germany and
Italy, and appeared very reluctant, post war, to track down booty
confiscated by the Nazis. (Up to mid-1943, the Swiss might have judged
that an attack by the Axis was a real threat, and played a careful
game.)

Be interesting to know if anyone has ever written a history of the
period and has had access to the actual Swiss government policies at
that time (or is it all secret for eternity?).

Cheers,

Dave


--
Dave Eadsforth

"Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith Willshaw keithnospam@kwillsh
aw.demon.co.uk writes


And the Swiss did shoot down German aircraft sent by Goering to
'demonstrate' over Swiss territory.


Indeed and to add insult to injury did so using German supplied
Me-109's which incident should have indicated to the Luftwaffe
that the Me-110 (which the Germans chose for the operation)
were no match for single engined fighters.

Keith

On Wed, 05 May 2004 05:28:58 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

On 4 May 2004 18:27:56 GMT, Laurence Doering wrote:

Jet streams vary between about one and four hundred miles wide, and
one to three miles deep. Wind speeds of three hundred mph or greater
are possible in winter.

Fascinating stuff. Thanks.

(Must wreak havoc with arrival times in London! I suppose pilots must
get permission to ride a 300 mph jet stream? That could shave two
hours off a flight BOS-LON.)

It's standard to use the jetstream (a couple of minutes of bumps to
get inside, if the pilot is good/lucky/got good met data)

Transatlantic EW is several hours longer than WE for that reason.

Peter Kemp

Peter Kemp wrote:

On Wed, 05 May 2004 05:28:58 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

On 4 May 2004 18:27:56 GMT, Laurence Doering wrote:

Jet streams vary between about one and four hundred miles wide, and
one to three miles deep. Wind speeds of three hundred mph or greater
are possible in winter.

Fascinating stuff. Thanks.

(Must wreak havoc with arrival times in London! I suppose pilots must
get permission to ride a 300 mph jet stream? That could shave two
hours off a flight BOS-LON.)

It's standard to use the jetstream (a couple of minutes of bumps to
get inside, if the pilot is good/lucky/got good met data)

Transatlantic EW is several hours longer than WE for that reason.

Peter Kemp

Well, it would be if you were silly enough to flight plan those
altitudes in their vicinity when going EW
--

-Gord.

On Thu, 06 May 2004 00:51:47 GMT, "Gord Beaman" )
wrote:

Peter Kemp wrote:

On Wed, 05 May 2004 05:28:58 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

On 4 May 2004 18:27:56 GMT, Laurence Doering wrote:

Jet streams vary between about one and four hundred miles wide, and
one to three miles deep. Wind speeds of three hundred mph or greater
are possible in winter.

Fascinating stuff. Thanks.

(Must wreak havoc with arrival times in London! I suppose pilots must
get permission to ride a 300 mph jet stream? That could shave two
hours off a flight BOS-LON.)

It's standard to use the jetstream (a couple of minutes of bumps to
get inside, if the pilot is good/lucky/got good met data)

Transatlantic EW is several hours longer than WE for that reason.

Peter Kemp

Well, it would be if you were silly enough to flight plan those
altitudes in their vicinity when going EW

I'll resist the urge to say 'duh'. Obviously the flights heading West
don't enter the Jet Stream. If I was not clear then I apologise
profusely and humble myself before one and all :-P

Peter Kemp

Transatlantic EW is several hours longer than WE for that reason.

I just looked at some schedules, and they seem to be 7 hours in either
direction, BOS-LHR.

That was for September. Here's one in May: 6.5 hours going over, 7
hours 5 mins coming back.

Okay, maybe half an hour difference, depending on time of year.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

And the Swiss did shoot down German aircraft sent by Goering to
'demonstrate' over Swiss territory.

More often they refueled errant German aircraft and sent them on their
way, while they several times shot down American aircraft that were
battle-damaged and obviously looking for a place to land. More than
1,000 U.S. airmen were interned in Switzerland, and more than a few
had been shot down by the Swiss. To the best of my knowledge, no
German airmen were so interned. See "Shot From the Sky" by Cathryn
Price www.warbirdforum.com/captivit.htm

Indeed, Swiss brutality toward their American (and a few British)
prisoners is an interesting commentary on the perils of being a
captive, apropros the current scandal in Iraq. Prisons are Bad Things
for those inside them.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Be interesting to know if anyone has ever written a history of the
period and has had access to the actual Swiss government policies at
that time

There are a couple books on the subject. I posted on Shot From the
Sky. I've also read a book (very pro-Swiss) on the Swiss martial
defenses and their preparations for invasion (basically, giving up a
third of the country to the Germans--along with the militia troops
assigned to defend the low ground--while the professional army
retreated to the mountains.

Curiously, I don't recall any big plans for the south. Of course the
Italians would hit the high ground almost immediately.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org