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#81
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Winch Signals
At 20:17 17 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 17 Apr, 13:45, Del C wrote: It leaves the pilot free to concentrate on flying the launch, and with his left hand on the release knob, ready to pull off in the event of a wing drop or other emergency. Or setting the altimeter to QNH, or retuning the radio, or selecting the task on his GPS, or scratching his crotch. A hand out of sight to the launch marshal does not mean a hand in the right place. And when did this "on the release" lark come in? I was always taught "near, but not on" the release. Ian All the above settings should be done in the 'instruments' part of the pre-flight check list. If you have to pull off under high tension during the ground run, the force to operate the release knob can be surprisingly high. If you are not holding it quite tightly, it is possible for your hand to slip round a round knob, as happened twice in the series of photos below: http://www.flightbox.net/galleries/w...wingdrop_1.htm These were taken on a rather cold spring day. The instructor was wearing gloves made out a synthetic material and it took him three attempts to pull off after the launch started to go wrong. BTW, our CFI wanted to fit T-handle release knobs to all our K13s after this incident, but found that without spending a small fortune for an 'approved modification' under EASA rules, this would have invalidated their Certificates of Airworthiness! I never cease to be amazed by the bureaucratic stupidity of this organisation, who recently tried to mandate airspeed indicators for hot air balloons! Derek Copeland |
#82
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Winch Signals
Thinking about this, for some strange reason the Norfolk Gliding Club at
Tibenham Airfield has acquired the nickname of the 'R.I.P. Gliding Club'. So perhaps they winch launch dead or brain dead pilots on a regular basis, in which case I apologise to Don! Derek C At 15:45 17 April 2009, Del C wrote: I think it's an acronym for TIBenham Brain In Neutral. Tibenham (Norfolk Gliding Club) is one of the places where Don flies. Derek C At 15:30 17 April 2009, Nyal Williams wrote: This is a world audience. What is TIBBIN? At 11:15 17 April 2009, Don Johnstone wrote: At 08:45 17 April 2009, Tom Gardner wrote: On Apr 16, 10:50=A0pm, The Real Doctor wrote: I very much doubt it is "right" in all circumstances But that's not the point. I think the evidence exists to show that neither system is unsafe and that the solution dictated (launch marshalls) did nothing to improve matters. I agree there was/is a problem with people releasing early enough when there is a winch launch problem, and to a lesser extent aerotwow. I suggest that the problem is not one of procedure but of training and awareness. How often do we see a wing touch the ground and the launch continue and become normal. Everyone heaves a sigh of relief and goes back to what they are doing. The accident didn't happen, but if it had, the cause would be nothing to do with were the pilot happened to have his hand, but with his possibly TIBBIN state. The introduction of launch marshalls was never ever going to solve the real problem, in fact it could only make it worse, and we lost out again by circumventing a percieved problem instead of tackling the real one. The main objection to the launch marshall system is that it introduced to UK gliding one of the most dangerous practices known, that of negative consent. Something will happen as the result of third party action unless first party action is taken to stop it. One can only wonder at the towering intellect and distilled wisdom that considered introducing negative consent to a safety critical procedure. The statistics are now showing that we did not solve the original problem at all, just masked it and yet we fail to learn. There are no easy solutions, knee jerk reactions seldom work. To solve problems you first have to identify the problem, then find a solution that is not worse than the problem we already have. In this case the solution was in my view. 1. More effective education and instruction of the dangers of failing to make an early release. Ensuring that pilots were thinking about what they were doing. (Prior to the change the hand had to be near the release when not actually signalling, you had to think what you we doing, now you don't, as long as your hand is on the release you are safe, Yeah right!!!!!!!) 2. Moving the position of the release to ensure that it is close to hand and not hidden away in the dark recesses of the cockpit. (This was mandated for tugs following the fatal tug accident at Aboyne) Apart from the faulty processess in problem solving my main concern remains, NEGATIVE CONSENT has no place in a launch procedure. |
#83
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Winch Signals
On 17 Apr, 22:00, Derek Copeland wrote:
At 20:17 17 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 17 Apr, 13:45, Del C *wrote: It leaves the pilot free to concentrate on flying the launch, and with his left hand on the release knob, ready to pull off in the event of a wing drop or other emergency. Or setting the altimeter to QNH, or retuning the radio, or selecting the task on his GPS, or scratching his crotch. A hand out of sight to the launch marshal does not mean a hand in the right place. All the above settings should be done in the 'instruments' part of the pre-flight check list. Should, yes. Wing tips shouldn't touch the ground, either. Ian |
#84
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Winch Signals
A wing drop can occur because of gusts, especially in a cross wind, or
because the wing tip runner doesn't hold the wings level or lets go too soon. They can also be caused by student pilots not using the ailerons aggressively enough to keep the wings level during the ground run, as happens in the following video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_VIfxOV8U And yes, the instructor should have taken over or pulled off, but he was very newly qualified at the time, and probably didn't realise how far some inexperienced students can be behind the action. Most gliders have to be balanced on a single mainwheel, so a wing drop during the ground run is always possible and pilots must be prepared for this. They certainly don't want to be fiddling with assorted bits of kit or 'scratching their crotches' once they are hooked on to a winch or aerotow! Derek C At 23:17 17 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 17 Apr, 22:00, Derek Copeland wrote: At 20:17 17 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 17 Apr, 13:45, Del C =A0wrote: It leaves the pilot free to concentrate on flying the launch, and with his left hand on the release knob, ready to pull off in the event of a wing drop or other emergency. Or setting the altimeter to QNH, or retuning the radio, or selecting the task on his GPS, or scratching his crotch. A hand out of sight to the launch marshal does not mean a hand in the right place. All the above settings should be done in the 'instruments' part of the pre-flight check list. Should, yes. Wing tips shouldn't touch the ground, either. Ian |
#85
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Winch Signals
On 18 Apr, 05:00, Derek Copeland wrote:
A wing drop can occur because of gusts, especially in a cross wind, or because the wing tip runner doesn't hold the wings level or lets go too soon. I think a principal reason is wing runners who use force to keep the wings level. No matter when they let go, the wing will drop. If the wing wants to go down - before the launch starts - the runner should let it do so until the pilot corrects with aileron. And the launch marshal should not start the launch until s/he is satisfied that the glider is balanced. Too many fail to do this, or don't even understand the issue. Most gliders have to be balanced on a single mainwheel, so a wing drop during the ground run is always possible and pilots must be prepared for this. They certainly don't want to be fiddling with assorted bits of kit or 'scratching their crotches' once they are hooked on to a winch or aerotow! Couldn't agree more. Why don't we use a signalling system which shows the launch signaller that the pilot is not doing these things, by demonstrating a free hand? Ian |
#86
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Winch Signals
TIBBIN - Thumb in bum, brain in neutral.
I have always been very unhappy with the concept of negative consent, the requirement that a pilot has to take action to stop the launch proceeding rather than giving the positive "take up slack" and "all out" signals himself. The current procedure, (launch marshal) was introduced to replace the necessity for the pilot to raise the one finger for take up slack or two for all out. This rather negates the idea that the hand could be fiddling with anything I would have thought. In fact the current procedure lends itself more to misuse as neither of the pilots hands can be seen under the current procedure. The problem, I would suggest, was one of pilots not being prepared rather than their hands being in the "wrong" place. All the current procedure does, with it's insistance on the hand being on the release, is to give an assurance of safety by the action rather than the underlying decision process that needs to take place. Addressing the process and reinforcing pilot thinking was generally ignored in favour of a requirement for hand placement. Whatever the reasoning the statistics show that the incidents continue at roughly the same rate and there is no disparity in rates between the organisations using the original procedure and the launch marshall system. Simply put the incident rates do not appear to have reduced in the BGA compared with the Air Cadets, in fact I believe the contrary may be true. We have in place a system which carries a risk, however small, of launching an incapacitated pilot, and which has shown no benefit in solving the perceived problem. On a final note, pilots do not pull off in their gliders one hopes. They operate the release or pull the release. I know the hand that is not holding the control column is no longer visible, and I do not know Lasham that well, but I find Dels description hard to give credence to. |
#87
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Winch Signals
At 21:00 17 April 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
BTW, our CFI wanted to fit T-handle release knobs to all our K13s after this incident, but found that without spending a small fortune for an 'approved modification' under EASA rules, this would have invalidated their Certificates of Airworthiness! I never cease to be amazed by the bureaucratic stupidity of this organisation, who recently tried to mandate airspeed indicators for hot air balloons! Derek Copeland This would have been a very valid solution and done more to address the problem. The release knob in my ASW17, and all early ASWs was very small and buried in the recesses of the cockpit where it was very difficult to get to. It would tend to hide underneath my legs. My solution was a loop of para cord secured to the release and around my wrist, with sufficient slack to avoid accidental release, which ensured that I never had to search for the release and, just as important allowed me to have my hand on the flap lever where it was needed in the early stage of the launch. |
#88
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Winch Signals
On Apr 18, 8:00*pm, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 21:00 17 April 2009, Derek Copeland wrote: BTW, our CFI wanted to fit T-handle release knobs to all our K13s after this incident, but found that without spending a small fortune for an 'approved modification' under EASA rules, this would have invalidated their Certificates of Airworthiness! I never cease to be amazed by the bureaucratic stupidity of this organisation, who recently tried to mandate airspeed indicators for hot air balloons! Derek Copeland This would have been a very valid solution and done more to address the problem. The release knob in my ASW17, and all early ASWs was very small and buried in the recesses of the cockpit where it was very difficult to get to. It would tend to hide underneath my legs. My solution was a loop of para cord secured to the release and around my wrist, with sufficient slack to avoid accidental release, which ensured that I never had to search for the release and, just as important allowed me to have my hand on the flap lever where it was needed in the early stage of the launch. My BGA senior inspector removed my device of similar reliability and offered to swage a proper fitting. Seems that was unacceptable pre- EASA. |
#89
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Winch Signals
I am not quite sure why the concept of hooking on only when you are ready
to launch constitutes 'negative consent'? If you subsequently see a problem developing ahead, feel the need to fiddle with bit of kit, scratch your crotch, or start to feel unwell, then pull off and call stop. I did exactly that last weekend, when I noticed a motor glider starting its take off run at the same time as as the Launch Point Controller (Marshal) was signalling up slack for my winch launch. (To be fair to him, the pilot of the motorglider had called some time before that he 'ready to depart', but had delayed his actual departure for some reason. The LPC thought it had already gone, and it was also taking off from a grass area that was behind his back.) It doesn't remove all responsibility from the pilot. You equally well argue that under Don's preferred system, you could be accidentally launched if you raise one finger to pick your nose, and then two fingers to tell the launch marshal what you think of him! We have been teaching the BGA preferred system for quite a few years now. That is, by accepting the cable to be hooked on you are ready to launch, and that you will have your left hand on the release knob. If you have a flapped glider, just set zero (or plus 1) flap for the take off run and then reset them if necessary, once you are safely in the air. The rapid acceleration on a winch launch should give you almost instant aileron control, so a flapped glider in neutral flap should be no worse off than a normal unflapped glider. Under the old 'two finger' launching system, I often used to find that student pilots went on signalling all the way up the launch, even though there was nobody out there to see it at 1000ft (!), and then make a grab for the canopy release knob, the airbrake lever, the flap lever or the undercarriage lever when it was time to release. Obviously this would be even more worrying if they had to pull off because a problem developed during the ground run! I can't remember this happening since the change. Derek Copeland At 01:15 19 April 2009, Don Johnstone wrote: TIBBIN - Thumb in bum, brain in neutral. I have always been very unhappy with the concept of negative consent, the requirement that a pilot has to take action to stop the launch proceeding rather than giving the positive "take up slack" and "all out" signals himself. The current procedure, (launch marshal) was introduced to replace the necessity for the pilot to raise the one finger for take up slack or two for all out. This rather negates the idea that the hand could be fiddling with anything I would have thought. In fact the current procedure lends itself more to misuse as neither of the pilots hands can be seen under the current procedure. The problem, I would suggest, was one of pilots not being prepared rather than their hands being in the "wrong" place. All the current procedure does, with it's insistance on the hand being on the release, is to give an assurance of safety by the action rather than the underlying decision process that needs to take place. Addressing the process and reinforcing pilot thinking was generally ignored in favour of a requirement for hand placement. Whatever the reasoning the statistics show that the incidents continue at roughly the same rate and there is no disparity in rates between the organisations using the original procedure and the launch marshall system. Simply put the incident rates do not appear to have reduced in the BGA compared with the Air Cadets, in fact I believe the contrary may be true. We have in place a system which carries a risk, however small, of launching an incapacitated pilot, and which has shown no benefit in solving the perceived problem. On a final note, pilots do not pull off in their gliders one hopes. They operate the release or pull the release. I know the hand that is not holding the control column is no longer visible, and I do not know Lasham that well, but I find Dels description hard to give credence to. |
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