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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 13th 06, 01:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are flying
with boarder patrol along the Mexico. Why can't the UAV just fly along
under an IFR flight plan and everyone else just avoid the little thing just
like any other plane on an IFR flight plan?

When there is so much talk about securing the boarders, I can't imagine that
there is any strip of the boarder that we can not monitor by radar.


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  #2  
Old January 13th 06, 02:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

"John Doe" wrote in
ink.net:

How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are
flying with boarder patrol along the Mexico. Why can't the UAV just
fly along under an IFR flight plan and everyone else just avoid the
little thing just like any other plane on an IFR flight plan?

When there is so much talk about securing the boarders, I can't
imagine that there is any strip of the boarder that we can not monitor
by radar.




The UAV is primarily looking at the ground....

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams
  #3  
Old January 13th 06, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

"JD" == John Doe writes:
JD Why can't the UAV just fly along under an IFR flight plan and
JD everyone else just avoid the little thing just like any other
JD plane on an IFR flight plan?

Because that's not the way it works in VMC. In VMC, *everybody*
avoids everybody else visually, as well as with other aids (ATC). So
if the "little thing" is flying, and I'm flying, and it's VMC and I'm
not talking to ATC, and I don't see that "little thing", and of course
nobody is onboard the UAV to see me....midairs happen.
  #4  
Old January 13th 06, 03:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

John Doe wrote:
How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are flying
with boarder patrol along the Mexico. Why can't the UAV just fly along
under an IFR flight plan and everyone else just avoid the little thing just
like any other plane on an IFR flight plan?

The "UAVs" are really remotely-piloted vehicles. The pilots are
instrument rated and the planes are on IFR flight plans. That info
comes from a USMC pilot of one of them.
  #5  
Old January 13th 06, 03:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

Maybe IFR from their base to the border, but when doing surveillance of
the border, the UAV will often loiter in an area which presents a
challenge to maintaining IFR separation.

"Stubby" wrote in message
...
John Doe wrote:
How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are
flying with boarder patrol along the Mexico. Why can't the UAV just
fly along under an IFR flight plan and everyone else just avoid the
little thing just like any other plane on an IFR flight plan?

The "UAVs" are really remotely-piloted vehicles. The pilots are
instrument rated and the planes are on IFR flight plans. That info
comes from a USMC pilot of one of them.



  #6  
Old January 13th 06, 04:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:38:33 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote in . net::

How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?


I would suspect the answer to that question is, very little. But
that's not the question we should be asking.

Why does baby Bush deploy UAVs for the mission of securing the
nation's southern border? Because UAVs cost millions of dollars, and
require a crew of 7 on the ground to operate them, not to mention the
airspace grab through TFRs, the money spent on this non-hostile
mission would be much better spent on live bodies in Cessna C-182s
equipped with IR sensors. UAVs are useful for missions on which the
potential for loss of crew is a factor, and about four times more
costly to operate than conventional manned surveillance aircraft. If
the Bush administration's goal were truly boarder security, they could
field four times as many manned observation/surveillance aircraft.

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are flying
with boarder patrol along the Mexico.


And well there should be. The current UAVs lack the ability to comply
with FARs requiring aircraft to maintain _visual_ separation in VMC.

Why can't the UAV just fly along under an IFR flight plan and everyone
else just avoid the little thing just like any other plane on an IFR flight plan?


Because, in VMC the UAVs are unable to comply with federal
regulations.

When there is so much talk about securing the boarders, I can't imagine that
there is any strip of the boarder that we can not monitor by radar.


The borders are unsecured, because the Bush administration doesn't
want to secure them. The UAVs are being deployed to establish a
precedent for remote domestic surveillance, in my opinion, not to
secure the nation's borders. Given the cost involved, what other
reason for UAV deployment makes sense?


  #7  
Old January 13th 06, 06:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

The RFP for the southern border project specified UAV's with 12 hour
endurance, synthetic aperture radar and a laser illuminator as well as
a FLIR system, light amplification cameras, comm relay for ground
agents, a mode S transponder and a pile of other stuff. You have a
182 and a crew that can do that?


I guess you're right. I've never heard of a 182 that can carry a mode S
transponder and be within its weight limits. The comm relay is another
impressive bit of gear - it can send signals literally through the air
as the aircraft is flying. Amazing technology, that.

I don't know how much the other equipment weighs, nor how it stacks up
against trained eyeballs. I have no idea why they need 12 hour
endurance - except that a UAV can't refuel as easily as a 182. I've
heard of 182s that can literally land on a grass field, refuel, and take
off again on that =very= =same= grass field!

How much of the UAV's systems are pilot surrogates? (that is, unneeded
if there were a live pilot on board?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #8  
Old January 13th 06, 06:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

I'm not sure how that relates to anything. ATC does not seperate IFR
pilots from non-partisipating VFR pilots. IFR pilots are required to
see-and-avoid just as much as VFR pilots. This TFR is a way around the
see-and-avoid requirement.

-Robert

  #9  
Old January 13th 06, 06:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

There is radar contact along the entire U.S. Mexican boarder. I usually
call ATC about 10 miles south of the boarder when enter the U.S. I've
entered from several areas of California and Arizona. Also, along the
California boarder there are airways that are as close as 5 miles from
the boarder that do not enter Mexico.

-Robert

  #10  
Old January 13th 06, 06:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
The borders are unsecured, because the Bush administration doesn't
want to secure them. The UAVs are being deployed to establish a
precedent for remote domestic surveillance, in my opinion, not to
secure the nation's borders. Given the cost involved, what other
reason for UAV deployment makes sense?


Window dressing, same as most of the TSA and Homeland Security nonsense.


 




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