Flarm with Firmware 1.20 update

Dan Marotta wrote:

That all sounds great except for the "mandatory" part. STAY THE HELL OUT
OF MY COCKPIT!

You Americans have a strange attitude to your freedom, even when your own
safety is involved. In Europe most glider clubs have accepted that Flarm is
a simple, working and affordable solution. The installation base is already
significant and rising. The system should be installed in each glider and
motor glider, it is mandatory to yourself, this must not be declared by some
government deparment.

Had a near miss myself last year. Flarm was working. I am not sure I had
seen the other if not equipped.

Save landings

Chris, well said. Everything is politics over here lately.

Otherwise...I rest my case.

This has nothing to do with government...IMO. It has to do with glider pilots, high risk, safely and needless death that is assured of happening without a broad effort by intelligent people. Stop hiding behind the word mandate. It IS a free country so you make your own call and excuses (3 pages full...). The FAA takes way too long. More pilots will die in the US before FLARM is widely enough adopted and has a chance to reach its full safety potential.

Well, its back to playing darts with our fellow glider, power and airline traffic for awhile. Enjoy!

On Jan 26, 3:13*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
Chris, well said. *Everything is politics over here lately.

Otherwise...I rest my case.

This has nothing to do with government...IMO. *It has to do with glider pilots, high risk, safely and needless death that is assured of happening without a broad effort by intelligent people. *Stop hiding behind the word mandate. *It IS a free country so you make your own call and excuses (3 pages full...). *The FAA takes way too long. *More pilots will die in the US before FLARM is widely enough adopted and has a chance to reach its full safety potential.

Well, its back to playing darts with our fellow glider, power and airline traffic for awhile. *Enjoy!

And the purpose of your rant is... what, exactly?

I cannot install in my panel what my dealer cannot ship. I've had a
Power Flarm on order since the middle of 2010 (I selected the brick
option when the choice was made available). A few hundred other would
be customers are in the same situation.

To Chris over in Europe... the US situation is rather different in
that a) the US is geographically huge and b) the US glider population
is very small. Glider clubs that launch eight gliders for a total of
perhaps 20 flights on a "busy" day account for a lot of US soaring.
There's no earthly reason to require or even strongly encourage Flarm
technology for such sparse traffic.

Based on casual conversation with numerous other pilots, likewise
waiting on delivery, I think we will find that Power Flarm gets well
adopted on the contest circuit and in the areas of the US that are
glider traffic dense. However, because the portable unit has only
just started shipping this Winter and the brick is still months off,
it will be 2013 before we have any sort of objective measure of how
well the device works and how many staunch anti-flarm pilots we have
to worry about in glider dense environments.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan,

That is all you can do. Your unit will be here in the spring. That is intelligent.

FLARM is proven in Europe. There is no question that it fundamentally improves safety in very much the same way that GPS improved navigation and radio's improved communication. No need to wait until 2013 for measurement.

I completely disagree with you that US operations have no earthly reason to use FLARM. I find that statement embarrassing for soaring. All it takes is once. All it takes is one glider and one tow plane. All it takes is one glider and one airplane flying by the airport. Should they not have radio's? Should the not have parachutes? Safety paint?

On Jan 26, 2:31*pm, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Jan 26, 3:13*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:

Chris, well said. *Everything is politics over here lately.

Otherwise...I rest my case.

This has nothing to do with government...IMO. *It has to do with glider pilots, high risk, safely and needless death that is assured of happening without a broad effort by intelligent people. *Stop hiding behind the word mandate. *It IS a free country so you make your own call and excuses (3 pages full...). *The FAA takes way too long. *More pilots will die in the US before FLARM is widely enough adopted and has a chance to reach its full safety potential.

Well, its back to playing darts with our fellow glider, power and airline traffic for awhile. *Enjoy!

And the purpose of your rant is... what, exactly?

I cannot install in my panel what my dealer cannot ship. *I've had a
Power Flarm on order since the middle of 2010 (I selected the brick
option when the choice was made available). *A few hundred other would
be customers are in the same situation.

To Chris over in Europe... the US situation is rather different in
that a) the US is geographically *huge and b) the US glider population
is very small. *Glider clubs that launch eight gliders for a total of
perhaps 20 flights on a "busy" day account for a lot of US soaring.
There's no earthly reason to require or even strongly encourage Flarm
technology for such sparse traffic.

Based on casual conversation with numerous other pilots, likewise
waiting on delivery, I think we will find that Power Flarm gets well
adopted on the contest circuit and in the areas of the US that are
glider traffic dense. *However, because the portable unit has only
just started shipping this Winter and the brick is still months off,
it will be 2013 before we have any sort of objective measure of how
well the device works and how many staunch anti-flarm pilots we have
to worry about in glider dense environments.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan,
We currently have 18 portable PowerFlarms that are in the possession
of pilots based at Moriarty. They have all received the recent
firmware and antenna upgrades. We have already seen some excellent
performance in the detection of transponder equipped aircraft, and
once the season gets going this spring, we should be able to provide
everyone some "real world" feedback on its Flarm to Flarm
performance...

Thx,
Renny

Evan Ludeman wrote:

To Chris over in Europe... the US situation is rather different in
that a) the US is geographically huge and b) the US glider population
is very small. Glider clubs that launch eight gliders for a total of
perhaps 20 flights on a "busy" day account for a lot of US soaring.

While this is correct, think about what all glider pilots are searching all
the time: lift. As soon as you find a good thermal, the chance is that
another joins you very soon. Circling in thermals can get you very close to
other gliders, even if the airspace around you is empty. My near miss
happened at a small competition, we had a 250 km triangle. Even when we
crossed the starting line at different times we met each other again and
again, sometimes 5 or more gliders circling together at the same altitude.
When then the Flarm shriekes and flashes at another glider coming from
behind you can make a sharp turn out of the circle. Better loose some 20m
than your wing.

Another near miss happened at our airfield in the landing pattern, when an
inexperienced pilot came heading straight against another one who was on
correct course. They did not have Flarm and could avoid a crash in the last
second.

What does it help when there are only 10 gliders in a 1000km radius, but one
that flies directly into your cockpit? Collisions happen where there are
reasons to be at the same place, like traffic patterns and thermals.

Happy landings

Let me state here that I'm not anti-FLARM or anti-anything else except for
more regulations. My original objection was to the all too quick use of the
term "mandate".

Evan makes a compelling case (in my opinion) of why FLARM may not have the
urgent need that the Europeans seem to have, especially in the Southwest,
where I fly. There just aren't that many aircraft in our very large sky.

Opinions vary (obviously). In my case, I don't see the urgent need for the
type and location of my flying, not to mention my budget is stretched thin
and there's no place in my panel for another device.

So, for Sean who, I think, also flies a LAK-17a, how do you mount your
FLARM? Did you have to remove something else that you considered less
important?


"Evan Ludeman" wrote in message
...
On Jan 26, 3:13 pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
Chris, well said. Everything is politics over here lately.

Otherwise...I rest my case.

This has nothing to do with government...IMO. It has to do with glider
pilots, high risk, safely and needless death that is assured of happening
without a broad effort by intelligent people. Stop hiding behind the word
mandate. It IS a free country so you make your own call and excuses (3
pages full...). The FAA takes way too long. More pilots will die in the US
before FLARM is widely enough adopted and has a chance to reach its full
safety potential.

Well, its back to playing darts with our fellow glider, power and airline
traffic for awhile. Enjoy!

And the purpose of your rant is... what, exactly?

I cannot install in my panel what my dealer cannot ship. I've had a
Power Flarm on order since the middle of 2010 (I selected the brick
option when the choice was made available). A few hundred other would
be customers are in the same situation.

To Chris over in Europe... the US situation is rather different in
that a) the US is geographically huge and b) the US glider population
is very small. Glider clubs that launch eight gliders for a total of
perhaps 20 flights on a "busy" day account for a lot of US soaring.
There's no earthly reason to require or even strongly encourage Flarm
technology for such sparse traffic.

Based on casual conversation with numerous other pilots, likewise
waiting on delivery, I think we will find that Power Flarm gets well
adopted on the contest circuit and in the areas of the US that are
glider traffic dense. However, because the portable unit has only
just started shipping this Winter and the brick is still months off,
it will be 2013 before we have any sort of objective measure of how
well the device works and how many staunch anti-flarm pilots we have
to worry about in glider dense environments.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Sounds to me like Chicken Little (the sky is falling).

Do what you want, Sean. Install what you want. Petition the Competition
Committee to require FLARM. Why not invent an autopilot which can be
coupled to the FLARM, ADS-B, TCAS II, and every other device that your
obviously deep pockets can afford and program that autopilot to keep you
clear of other aircraft.

Why not just sit on the ground while your glider flies itself and cry about
us pig headed old guys who are too dumb to see it your way? Call me
unintelligent if you want. I'm not impressed.

Dan


"Sean Fidler" wrote in message
news:16307004.478.1327608828924.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqa29...
Chris, well said. Everything is politics over here lately.

Otherwise...I rest my case.

This has nothing to do with government...IMO. It has to do with glider
pilots, high risk, safely and needless death that is assured of happening
without a broad effort by intelligent people. Stop hiding behind the word
mandate. It IS a free country so you make your own call and excuses (3
pages full...). The FAA takes way too long. More pilots will die in the US
before FLARM is widely enough adopted and has a chance to reach its full
safety potential.

Well, its back to playing darts with our fellow glider, power and airline
traffic for awhile. Enjoy!

Dan, Dan Dan...

Intelligent pilots would WANT to (don't have too, or may not be able to afford...) be as safe as possible for their fellow pilots and themselves. Flarm is a no brainier. There is no question that they reduce risk significantly, and the more pilots that have them, the safer we all are.

You don't see it that way. Fine. But wow...

Old, pig headed and dumb? :-) No comment.

Sean

I think any intelligent, safety conscious cross country glider (flying in area's where other gliders, tow-planes, etc are regularly operating) pilot would (out of respect to him/herself and his/her fellow pilots lives and safety) spend the $1600 to greatly improve his/her situation awareness relating to collision risk with gliders and other aircraft. I say this with as much restraint as possible.

I can say that in Uvalde last summer I came within 100m of a head on collision (open class gliders) twice on the same day. I can guarantee that neither of them saw me. I believe this was on the first or second contest day. It scared the **** out of me because the never flinched...and this kind of thing a risk we all needlessly assume when one or some pilots are not protecting all of us.

About 30 seconds later I picked up a FLARM equipped glider and was able to pick it up roughly 1 mile away and steer clear.

It seems fairly irrational to me NOT to take advantage of an affordable, available anti collision instrument which when operating properly (and in all aircraft) greatly decreases the risk of a surprise collision (the kind where each pilot is completely unaware that the other glider is approaching).

Unfortunately, the reality is that this kind of intelligent, rational action will not happen until yet another pilot (or pair of pilots...perhaps more) are killed in the next (now pointless) fatal collision. I would not be surprised if, ironically, it was a FLARM glider vs. a non FLARM glider.

Mandatory is a bad word, agreed. But pilots respecting safety intensely (their own as well as their fellow pilots (both glider and power)) is a great thing in my opinion. I wish we had more of these kind of pilots.

I have only been flying for 8-9 years to date... and very limited at that. I have now flown 4-5 contests. I have narrowly missed collision now at least 4 times. I wonder how many I did not see at all?

Flying without a electronic means of warning for collision is not an IF questions, it is a WHEN questions. Unfortunately, when the next big name contest or cross country pilot dies because of a midair...this debate will end.

Until then,

Sean
F2