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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required



 
 
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  #61  
Old March 13th 10, 04:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 838
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On Mar 13, 9:29*am, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote:


Then again, I flew for a living, and my employer expected me to burn as
little fuel as possible, and arrive on time, while doing it all safey
and professionally.


So again I ask of you, what am I doing UNSAFE? Where in my videos do
I lack professionalism.

I even have posted my videos to get input to up the anti of my game
flying in the instrument world and been very clear about soliciting
constructive feedback. What have you provided other then to say the
videos are boring.

I am all ears for safety.
  #62  
Old March 14th 10, 12:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
VOR-DME[_3_]
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Posts: 70
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

For what it is worth, I am instrument rated, and current, and I am with Sam
on this one. You are indeed expected to know what your ground speed is on
final, within a reasonable margin of error, and the timing table (or your
own time/speed calculation) is the correct way to determine the MAP. There
are plenty of LOC approaches without DME, and not that many that actually
require it. The minimums applied here, along with the penalties for no
local altimeter etc are plenty conservative to make this a safe LOC
approach without DME. It could simply be a charting mistake.

If they really meant for DME to be required it would likely be in the name;
ILS or LOC/DME RWY 9.




In article
,
says...



But of course you do know that the timing table is based on GS. * What
if your GS was 68 knots Sam?


DME is your ONLY source to ensure that you are at MAP along WITH
timing. * If you want to descend below MDA based on time alone AND no
DME, I sure wouldn't want to fly with you.


Of course I do NOT know that. *The timing table is for the LOC MAP. *DA
is your MAP for the ILS.

This newsgroup is so lacking in the fundamentals.


You imply Sam that timing alone is how you determine the MAP. I say
it's not.

DME determines when you can go below MDA which would be at MAP not 3
minutes 12 seconds.

Be my guest on descending below MDA at 3:12 without DME Sam. I won't
be in the plane with you as you come up short or even overshoot the
MAP due to headwinds or tailwind considerations.


  #64  
Old March 16th 10, 12:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Padraig[_2_]
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Posts: 7
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Gents,

Thanks for the responses. Sorry to have incited such an argument.

Sam, just curious, did you talk to FAA folks (friendlies, as you put
it)? Thanks for the info. Interesting. You're saying it's
misleading to show the 120R ADL versus just the CHS Radial and
Distance. I agree if that's what you're saying.

One of the big take-aways from this back-and-forth that surprised me
was that no one talked about Visual Descent Points (VDPs), charted or
otherwise. The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they
are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA
(assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). In lieu of a
charted VDPs, make your own using the rule of 300 ft/nm descent rate.
So if your MDA takes you to 600 AGL, leave MDA 2.0NM before the runway
(again, assuming you're in a position to land and meet the reqs of
descending below MDA). I believe in part it's to keep a/c from
descending into the ground after the "DIVE/DRIVE" method and they
break out way before MAP (especially at night).

Airlines have redone a lot of their tactics on non-precision
approaches, and the whole dive/drive method is somewhat outdated.
It's preferred to have a fairly constant descent to MAP, just like an
ILS approach or LPV. Getting down to MDA early can be dangerous if
you have to drive for some distance before it's safe to descend to the
runway.

Anyway, thanks for the videos. It's good to see actual footage when
most of the time I'm stuck inside thinking about flying.

Last point. And I know the approach name doesn't call out ILS/DME,
but what the heck do I do if I go missed and have to fess up that I
don't have DME. I would imagine the FAA could come after me (in
theory) since it's required per the procedural note.

Thanks,
Padraig

On Mar 12, 3:46*pm, Sam Spade wrote:

I got an answer from the friendlies. *The ALD radial is restricted below
6,000, thus DME is mandatory for BASSO. *I pointed out that charting the
ALD R-120 as part of the fix composition on the approach chart is
misleading.


  #65  
Old March 16th 10, 02:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Bob Moore
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Posts: 291
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Padraig wrote
The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they
are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA
(assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA).


Nope!! As I pointed out to Atlieb, MDA has nothing to do with the MAP, the
VDP has nothing to do with the MAP except that it must be outside the MAP.

The following is the U.S. FAA's official definition of VDP:

"A defined point on the final approach course of a nonprecision straight-in
approach procedure from which normal descent from the MDA to the runway
touchdown point may be commenced, provided the approach threshold of that
runway, or approach lights, or other markings identifiable with the
approach end of that runway are clearly visible to the pilot."

Bob Moore
  #67  
Old March 16th 10, 03:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

VOR-DME wrote:

For what it is worth, I am instrument rated, and current, and I am with Sam
on this one. You are indeed expected to know what your ground speed is on
final, within a reasonable margin of error, and the timing table (or your
own time/speed calculation) is the correct way to determine the MAP. There
are plenty of LOC approaches without DME, and not that many that actually
require it. The minimums applied here, along with the penalties for no
local altimeter etc are plenty conservative to make this a safe LOC
approach without DME. It could simply be a charting mistake.

If they really meant for DME to be required it would likely be in the name;
ILS or LOC/DME RWY 9.

No, that is not correct. Several years ago the naming convention was
changed to include DME in the title only when it is required for the
final approach segment. If it is required for the intermediate segment,
or all of initial approach segments (if there is more than one) or the
missed approach segment, it will be a note.

In the case of the procedure that started this thread, DME is required
for the missed approach holding fix, because the crossing radial does
not pass flight inspection below 6,000. The crossing radial should not
be shown in that case, but the procedures staff keeps it on there hoping
that maintenance will eventually get it fixed so they remove the DME
note. Yes, convoluted and confusing.
  #68  
Old March 16th 10, 03:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Padraig wrote:

Gents,

Thanks for the responses. Sorry to have incited such an argument.

Sam, just curious, did you talk to FAA folks (friendlies, as you put
it)? Thanks for the info. Interesting. You're saying it's
misleading to show the 120R ADL versus just the CHS Radial and
Distance. I agree if that's what you're saying.


Yes, my work causes me to interface with AeroNav Services in OKC
(formerly the National Flight Procedures Office), which is the office
that designs and maintains instrument procedures. Anyone can review
pending procedures and contact them through their web site at:

http://naco.faa.gov/acifp.asp

The links to the left side of the page will lead to other information,
such as instrument procedures production plans.



One of the big take-aways from this back-and-forth that surprised me
was that no one talked about Visual Descent Points (VDPs), charted or
otherwise. The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they
are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA
(assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). In lieu of a
charted VDPs, make your own using the rule of 300 ft/nm descent rate.
So if your MDA takes you to 600 AGL, leave MDA 2.0NM before the runway
(again, assuming you're in a position to land and meet the reqs of
descending below MDA). I believe in part it's to keep a/c from
descending into the ground after the "DIVE/DRIVE" method and they
break out way before MAP (especially at night).

Airlines have redone a lot of their tactics on non-precision
approaches, and the whole dive/drive method is somewhat outdated.
It's preferred to have a fairly constant descent to MAP, just like an
ILS approach or LPV. Getting down to MDA early can be dangerous if
you have to drive for some distance before it's safe to descend to the
runway.

Anyway, thanks for the videos. It's good to see actual footage when
most of the time I'm stuck inside thinking about flying.

Last point. And I know the approach name doesn't call out ILS/DME,
but what the heck do I do if I go missed and have to fess up that I
don't have DME. I would imagine the FAA could come after me (in
theory) since it's required per the procedural note.

Thanks,
Padraig

On Mar 12, 3:46 pm, Sam Spade wrote:


I got an answer from the friendlies. The ALD radial is restricted below
6,000, thus DME is mandatory for BASSO. I pointed out that charting the
ALD R-120 as part of the fix composition on the approach chart is
misleading.



  #69  
Old March 16th 10, 03:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Padraig wrote:

One of the big take-aways from this back-and-forth that surprised me
was that no one talked about Visual Descent Points (VDPs), charted or
otherwise. The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they
are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA
(assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). In lieu of a
charted VDPs, make your own using the rule of 300 ft/nm descent rate.
So if your MDA takes you to 600 AGL, leave MDA 2.0NM before the runway
(again, assuming you're in a position to land and meet the reqs of
descending below MDA). I believe in part it's to keep a/c from
descending into the ground after the "DIVE/DRIVE" method and they
break out way before MAP (especially at night).


The VDP is invaluable when it is charted. But, many NPAs don't have
them because the charting requirements are rather stringent.

Of course, use of a VDP requires leaving MDA prior to the MAP. ;-)
  #70  
Old March 17th 10, 11:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Padraig[_2_]
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Posts: 7
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Bob, sorry, substitute TDZ with MAP. My point is that generally a VDP
is measured from the end of the runway (beginning of TDZ) which is
often where the MAP is (on RNAV approaches).

Thanks.

On Mar 16, 9:20*am, Bob Moore wrote:
Padraig wrote

*The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they
are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA
(assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA).


Nope!! As I pointed out to Atlieb, MDA has nothing to do with the MAP, the
VDP has nothing to do with the MAP except that it must be outside the MAP..

The following is the U.S. FAA's official definition of VDP:

"A defined point on the final approach course of a nonprecision straight-in
approach procedure from which normal descent from the MDA to the runway
touchdown point may be commenced, provided the approach threshold of that
runway, or approach lights, or other markings identifiable with the
approach end of that runway are clearly visible to the pilot."

Bob Moore


 




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