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#31
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Jim Stewart wrote in
: Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote: On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: -- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying? In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in a trainer I'd suggest 2g max. Ken -- IGNORE ABOVE --- Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to reality.... This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final! A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns, even in twink flying, gee I wonder why. It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was a requirement for a pilot's license. Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? I figger he's reading the snot in his hanky like tea leaves. The Practical Test Standard requires the demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree bank and a safe or recommended airspeed. That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's not going to be 2g in my plane. Oh but how about a paper F-104? Bertie |
#32
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote in : Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote: On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: -- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying? In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in a trainer I'd suggest 2g max. Ken -- IGNORE ABOVE --- Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to reality.... This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final! A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns, even in twink flying, gee I wonder why. It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was a requirement for a pilot's license. Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? I figger he's reading the snot in his hanky like tea leaves. The Practical Test Standard requires the demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree bank and a safe or recommended airspeed. That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's not going to be 2g in my plane. Oh but how about a paper F-104? Excellent. Does it come with a checkride with MX? |
#33
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Jim Stewart wrote in
news Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Jim Stewart wrote in : Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote: On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: -- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying? In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in a trainer I'd suggest 2g max. Ken -- IGNORE ABOVE --- Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to reality.... This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final! A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns, even in twink flying, gee I wonder why. It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was a requirement for a pilot's license. Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? I figger he's reading the snot in his hanky like tea leaves. The Practical Test Standard requires the demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree bank and a safe or recommended airspeed. That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's not going to be 2g in my plane. Oh but how about a paper F-104? Excellent. Does it come with a checkride with MX? If you can take it to his apartment in paris. Of course, he could walk to you for expenses. Bertie |
#34
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) I hesitate to add to this discussion because I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow student who's not qualified to give advice that might kill someone. My instructor carefully pointed out the difference between a stall on final as opposed to a snap spin. A stall might be recoverable with no more damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas a spin could really fsk up your day. The gist of his advice was that if you keep the turn coordinated or even add a little extra aileron, the up wing will have to come all the way down through level before it will spin, giving you time get the nose down and level the wings before that spin can develop. OTOH, a flat turn to final can quickly develop into a spin before you can get it under control. |
#35
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Jim Stewart wrote:
skym wrote: While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) I hesitate to add to this discussion because I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow student who's not qualified to give advice that might kill someone. My instructor carefully pointed out the difference between a stall on final as opposed to a snap spin. A stall might be recoverable with no more damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas a spin could really fsk up your day. The gist of his advice was that if you keep the turn coordinated or even add a little extra aileron, the up wing will have to come all the way down through level before it will spin, giving you time get the nose down and level the wings before that spin can develop. OTOH, a flat turn to final can quickly develop into a spin before you can get it under control. Any stall in the pattern can be a serious problem. You need stall and yaw rate to induce spin. Of all the possible scenarios to have if you manage to be ham handed enough to get into a stall in the pattern, a stall from a slip is the most anti-spin. Then comes a coordinated stall with no yaw induced at the break, and finally the worst condition is a stall from a skidding turn. No matter which scenario, angle of attack MUST be lowered, and any yaw rate MUST be neutralized IMMEDIATELY! -- Dudley Henriques |
#36
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
On Mar 12, 10:52 am, Jim Stewart wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote: On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: -- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying? In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in a trainer I'd suggest 2g max. Ken -- IGNORE ABOVE --- Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to reality.... This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final! A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns, even in twink flying, gee I wonder why. It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was a requirement for a pilot's license. Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? The Practical Test Standard requires the demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree bank and a safe or recommended airspeed. That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's not going to be 2g in my plane. One instructor I had was really good, and he certainly wasn't a sissy, he went beyond the book, but within stated limits of the A/C in that case a 152. Just twist to 60 degrees for a few seconds, watch the ball, and twist back to level. Doing a 45 is a MINIMUM govmonk standard, as Jim point's out, well some instructors want better than minimum skills, and as it turned out the fella was gov qualified to license me, which he did. Ken |
#37
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Jim Stewart wrote in
: skym wrote: While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) I hesitate to add to this discussion because I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow student who's not qualified to give advice that might kill someone. My instructor carefully pointed out the difference between a stall on final as opposed to a snap spin. A stall might be recoverable with no more damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas a spin could really fsk up your day. The gist of his advice was that if you keep the turn coordinated or even add a little extra aileron, the up wing will have to come all the way down through level before it will spin, giving you time get the nose down and level the wings before that spin can develop. You turn too tight base to finals and lose the plot with speed and co- ordination, the airplane could spin. Unless it's an Ercoupe, of course. Bertie |
#38
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
: On Mar 12, 10:52 am, Jim Stewart wrote: Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote: On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: -- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying? In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in a trainer I'd suggest 2g max. Ken -- IGNORE ABOVE --- Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to reality.... This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final! A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns, even in twink flying, gee I wonder why. It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was a requirement for a pilot's license. Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? The Practical Test Standard requires the demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree bank and a safe or recommended airspeed. That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's not going to be 2g in my plane. One instructor I had was really good, and he certainly wasn't a sissy, he went beyond the book, but within stated limits of the A/C in that case a 152. Just twist to 60 degrees for a few seconds, watch the ball, and twist back to level. Doing a 45 is a MINIMUM govmonk standard, as Jim point's out, well some instructors want better than minimum skills, and as it turned out the fella was gov qualified to license me, which he did. No, he didn;'t. Nobody could possibly ever have licensed you with the level of knowledge you display, wannabe boi. Bertie |
#39
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
On Mar 12, 4:39 pm, (Ron Lee) wrote:
What happens to stall speed as your bank angle increases? Increases (supposing that you're turning) What are two options to preventing a stall (regardless of whether a spin in entered)? 1)Keep your airspeed up 2)ncrease power and keep your airspeed up |
#40
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Dudley Henriques wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote: skym wrote: While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) I hesitate to add to this discussion because I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow student who's not qualified to give advice that might kill someone. My instructor carefully pointed out the difference between a stall on final as opposed to a snap spin. A stall might be recoverable with no more damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas a spin could really fsk up your day. The gist of his advice was that if you keep the turn coordinated or even add a little extra aileron, the up wing will have to come all the way down through level before it will spin, giving you time get the nose down and level the wings before that spin can develop. OTOH, a flat turn to final can quickly develop into a spin before you can get it under control. Any stall in the pattern can be a serious problem. You need stall and yaw rate to induce spin. Of all the possible scenarios to have if you manage to be ham handed enough to get into a stall in the pattern, a stall from a slip is the most anti-spin. Then comes a coordinated stall with no yaw induced at the break, and finally the worst condition is a stall from a skidding turn. No matter which scenario, angle of attack MUST be lowered, and any yaw rate MUST be neutralized IMMEDIATELY! You put it better than I could. Thanks. |
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