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Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activated via "activate approach"?



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 18th 08, 12:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activatedvia "activate approach"?

Stan Prevost wrote:

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

Stan Prevost wrote:

FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR,
ENTER to confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.

vs

PROC, ENTER.



True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
supposed to be if I "activate."




(and from another post)

I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected
removing the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight,
then everything sequences without pilot intervention



Sam, I have reread your posts trying to make sure I understand your
points. First of all, I didn't know the Garmins would self-activate, so
that is something new I have learned from this thread. More on that
later. I understand that you prefer to perform a more complex task
rather than a two-button-task if you can move the task to a less busy
period of the flight. But the "without pilot intervention" part only
happens if you were already direct to the IAF at the time you deleted
the airport waypoint, or deleted the airport waypoint to make the
navigator sequence to the IAF when instructed to proceed direct to the
IAF. Either way, it is the same result as the simpler activation
procedure performed at the same point in time. If that is not true,
then I am missing something in the scenario. Perhaps a simple example
would help.


The following is via airways but I will just make it like it goes into a
non-aireay Garmin:

Hypothetical KingAir flight:

KEMT
DARTS
LHS
EHF
FMG
LKV
URBIA
KBDN

Before top of descent half way between LKV and URBIA, I check the AWOS
for KBND, and the wind is favoring Runway 16. Shortly, thereafter
Seattle Center asks me whether I want the Bend RNAV Y or Z to Runway 16.
I advise that I want the Z 16 and they reply "expect the Z IAP to 16.

I then load select the Z approach and the DSD transition and load.
Since I am still en route I also take the option step of cleaning up the
flight plan by deleting all waypoints prior to LKV.

Now, I have:

Enroute

LKV
URBIA
KBDN

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

I then delete KBDN and have


LKV
URBIA

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

Everything will sequence without any further action on my part through
the missed approach.

When I pass within 30 miles of the ARP I will have terminal sensitivity
and 2 miles prior to HEKIL I will have approach mode. Since approach
annunciates at that time I have approach RAIM.


As far as I can determine, the self-activation feature is not mentioned
in the Garmin manuals. I believe another poster said the same.
Personally, I am a bit uneasy about using undocumented "features" of
software in critical situations. For one thing, we don't really know
what is happening and if it has even been tested. Does it do the
required RAIM predictions prior to the FAF? How would you know, unless
it fails? Does this "feature" work under all conditions? Another
thing, you don't know if the "feature" will still exist, or work the
same way, if the software is updated.


I believe it will always work because it is part of the ARINC spec for
RNAV flight plans. If it wouldn't work in the future, then the flight
plan wouldn't have "approach" followed by the approach legs.

I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
they approve using the navigator this way? Or the FAA?

It's how all FMSes that I have used work. But, let's find out what
Garmin has to say. I work with one of their engineers who can answer
the question. The FAA wouldn't know squat. ;-)



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  #42  
Old February 18th 08, 12:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activatedvia "activate approach"?

Stan Prevost wrote:


"Mitty" wrote in message
...



On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
snip


I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
they approve using the navigator this way?



Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support
transferring me to very knowledgeable people when I had something
besides the usual RTFM questions. My guess is that the manuals are
the problem and that the behavior is in the design spec.



I would call them if I understood why I might have anything to gain from
doing so. I don't yet understand how using the undocumented
self-activation "feature" helps anything.


It helps me in avoiding having to activate the approach at a possible
inopportune time.

  #43  
Old February 18th 08, 02:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Stan Prevost
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activated via "activate approach"?


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
I then delete KBDN and have


LKV
URBIA

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

Everything will sequence without any further action on my part through the
missed approach.

When I pass within 30 miles of the ARP I will have terminal sensitivity
and 2 miles prior to HEKIL I will have approach mode. Since approach
annunciates at that time I have approach RAIM.


OK, that is pretty much what I understood. And I understood that once you
pass URBIA, your navigation will be to the IAF (or feeder fix, whichever it
is) DSD. But you haven't been cleared to DSD, you have only been told to
EXPECT that approach, nothing more, and you are still cleared URBIA.KBDN,
and must continue to fly that route until cleared otherwise.

BTW, I was at KBDN this summer, long way from home base in Alabama. Had
interesting tours of Columbia plant and Epic plant.




  #44  
Old February 18th 08, 05:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,326
Default Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activatedvia "activate approach"?

Stan Prevost wrote:

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

I then delete KBDN and have


LKV
URBIA

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

Everything will sequence without any further action on my part through
the missed approach.

When I pass within 30 miles of the ARP I will have terminal
sensitivity and 2 miles prior to HEKIL I will have approach mode.
Since approach annunciates at that time I have approach RAIM.


OK, that is pretty much what I understood. And I understood that once
you pass URBIA, your navigation will be to the IAF (or feeder fix,
whichever it is) DSD. But you haven't been cleared to DSD, you have
only been told to EXPECT that approach, nothing more, and you are still
cleared URBIA.KBDN, and must continue to fly that route until cleared
otherwise.


Ok, okay. 20 miles southeast of URBIA, Seattle Center says, "Cross
URBIA at, or above 10,000, cleared for the Bend RNAV Zula Runway 16
approach. Report HEKIL."

If that didn't happen I would be bugging them before URBIA. Remember, I
didn't specify the filed route; rather just gave the waypoints. The
filed route would be KEMT..DARTS..LHS..AMONT..EHF.J5.LKV.V165.DSD..KBDN

URBIA would be in my Garmin flight plan sequence because it is an MEA break.

BTW, I was at KBDN this summer, long way from home base in Alabama. Had
interesting tours of Columbia plant and Epic plant.


I lived in Bend as a second home in the 1980s until late 1990. The
airport was very quiet then compared to now. The new LPV approach (just
effective last Thursday) is a significant improvement.

And, if I were arriving on that route this soon after the effective date
the center might very well not even be aware of the new Zulu approach. ;-)





  #45  
Old February 18th 08, 03:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,326
Default Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activatedvia "activate approach"?

Stan Prevost wrote:

"Mitty" wrote in message
...



On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
snip


I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
they approve using the navigator this way?



Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support
transferring me to very knowledgeable people when I had something
besides the usual RTFM questions. My guess is that the manuals are
the problem and that the behavior is in the design spec.



I would call them if I understood why I might have anything to gain from
doing so. I don't yet understand how using the undocumented
self-activation "feature" helps anything.

Stan

Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at
the top of the engineering food chain the

"Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.

We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."
  #46  
Old February 18th 08, 05:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Stan Prevost
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activated via "activate approach"?


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at the
top of the engineering food chain the

"Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.

We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."



Thanks, Sam!


  #47  
Old February 18th 08, 05:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Terence Wilson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activated via "activate approach"?

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:46:16 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:


Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at
the top of the engineering food chain the

"Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.

We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."


Thanks for looking into that Sam.
 




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