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US team silence



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 22nd 18, 04:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,327
Default US team silence

Well, nice you sorta bring it up, and I have asked before on here, what are a couple/few things you think out WGC pilots are lacking based on how we do rules?

I have been looking for comments from US pilots that have flown here and a WGC.

You mention large gaggles.
I have thought team flying.
Maybe it's contest flight planning.

I have received some emails in the last couple years where certain people said, "well, we will be discussing soon, can't say anything now".
Can't say I ever heard back.

Just curious.
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  #12  
Old July 22nd 18, 05:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 287
Default US team silence

At 15:34 22 July 2018, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
Well, nice you sorta bring it up, and I have asked before on here,

what are
a couple/few things you think out WGC pilots are lacking based on

how we do
rules?

I have been looking for comments from US pilots that have flown

here and a
WGC.

You mention large gaggles.
I have thought team flying.
Maybe it's contest flight planning.

I have received some emails in the last couple years where certain

people
said, "well, we will be discussing soon, can't say anything now".
Can't say I ever heard back.

Just curious.

Ideally, in my mind, you need good team flyers who also are both
(or 3) equally comfortable in huge gaggle flying. The team flying
is especially important for the times when you get split off from the
gaggle. You really need both....though look at what Makoto from
Japan was able to achieve at the 2016 and now the 2018 WGC as a
single player. In the short winged "white tornado" gaggle classes,
gaggle flying ability comes first, then team flying. USA contests are
designed to minimize the gaggle flying, WGC's are not. Contest
flight planning? Not so much. You can start with an anticipated
game plan, but once you are on course, you have to run continual
decision making loops which will generate almost immediate
deviations from the original plan. The wx and situations can change
very rapidly, and you need to be able to shift gears and deviate from
the plan ASAP. Your decision making loop process has to be faster
than that of your competitors. That is where you get ahead, but
most of that is from what develops on course, rather than pre-flight
planning.

Simply my own first hand perspective / observations....

RO

  #13  
Old July 22nd 18, 05:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
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Posts: 304
Default US team silence

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 2:42:01 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
In the entire club, 15, and standard WGC, the US team posted a grand total of two pilot reports about what was going on

https://ussoaringteams.org/#news

Clearly there were lots of lessons learned here!

US team: you want our support. You want our money. You want our volunteer time. And yet you can't be bothered to post any news at all about the contest. Take a look at any of your competitors -- the UK team is a good example. If you're too tired to write, at least post a 30 second video of the story of the day!

John Cochrane BB


In the 2017 pilot poll, pilots who flew in a FAI National in 2017 prefer moving to FAI rules 69% to 31% with 59% of contest participants responding.

Just sayin...
  #14  
Old July 22nd 18, 06:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Karl Striedieck[_2_]
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Posts: 141
Default US team silence

Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of the contest and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and support. It has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our pilots can't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see if any of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for seven days of back page scores.

RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount of gaggling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a lot of that here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous life of yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to mix it up and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests. Yet he finished next to last.

Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls common in Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds, precip and weak lift.

And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots and rarely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.

As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors at this WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented by intense use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here we have very little of this.

Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong weather at future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with great weather. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here found me grovelling on the back page.

Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go Team Go!









  #15  
Old July 22nd 18, 06:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,327
Default US team silence

Well, to RO and KS (both have flown WGC and many US nats), I appreciate your time and thoughts.

Thanks.

I am not trying to make or sway US rule making, just seeking insight to clarify my thoughts, or, change them.

I know there has been been many "knashing of teeth" on US rules here on RAS, my question is basically, what, if anything about our rules can hinder better placing in WGC.

I know I "team flew" with a past WGC member, mostly on Fridays and maybe that helped in WGC.
We both did better.

But team sports need many hours together so you think as one.
We do it in the shop on aircraft work, you can hand a tool to someone as they are asking for it.

Not something our current rules promote.

I guess part of the question is.......do we want a US champ, or do we want to prep for WGC?

If both, then maybe our rules need to change.
  #16  
Old July 22nd 18, 06:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default US team silence

At 17:09 22 July 2018, Karl Striedieck wrote:
Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of

the contest
=
and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and

support.
I=
t has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our

pilots
can=
't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see

if
a=
ny of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for

seven
days=
of back page scores.=20

RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount

of
gagg=
ling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a

lot of
th=
at here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous

life of
=
yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to

mix it
u=
p and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests.

Yet he
fi=
nished next to last.=20

Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls

common
in=
Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds,
precip=
and weak lift. =20

And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots

and
rar=
ely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.=20

As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors

at this
=
WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented

by intense
=
use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here

we have
ver=
y little of this.=20

Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong

weather at
=
future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with

great
weath=
er. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here

found me
=
grovelling on the back page.

Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go

Team Go!


KS also has valid points. Having flown with KS at numerous
contests back in the 1980's, (before the current rules came into
effect), I can attest to his very astute abilities in leading, steering,
maneuvering in and otherwise having huge situational awareness
in large gaggles. KS also has a military formation flying
background, and I'm sure it helped him attain his gaggle flying
abilities. He always has his head on a swivel and never gets locked
onto just following the guy ahead of him. To me it is a given
prerequisite skill set to possess if one wants to do well at a WGC -
good wx or not. You have to be able make in-thermal corrections to
center the lift when the gaggle is flying "half in - half out". You have
to have the Situational Awareness (SA) to see a new wisp forming
off to the side and to lead the gaggle there from inside etc.. I had a
5th in Rieti and a 2nd in Benalla at "good wx" venues. I would not
have placed nearly as well had it not been for being able to be
effective at gaggle flying. KS mentions the pre-start gaggles in the
USA, but it's just not the same as when I'm on course. Pre-start
doesn't count for points, and accordingly pilots treat it differently. I
know that I do...

ps..Karl, I don't know if you are including Jim Lee as a "westerner"
because he's now out of Minden or not, but he was in FL for many
years prior, and before that he was a hang glider champion. I would
not be so quick to pigeon-hole him. Mike Westbrook may be from
TX now, but he spent a fair amount of time at Elmira in prior times
too. Add FS who officially hails from GA, and you have 3 of the 6
that aren't necessarily pure "westerners" experience wise....

RO

  #17  
Old July 22nd 18, 07:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 976
Default US team silence

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:09:26 AM UTC-7, Karl Striedieck wrote:
Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of the contest and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and support. It has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our pilots can't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see if any of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for seven days of back page scores.

RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount of gaggling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a lot of that here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous life of yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to mix it up and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests. Yet he finished next to last.

Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls common in Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds, precip and weak lift.

And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots and rarely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.

As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors at this WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented by intense use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here we have very little of this.

Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong weather at future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with great weather. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here found me grovelling on the back page.

Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go Team Go!


Do you have a link to Kawa's letter?

Tom
  #18  
Old July 22nd 18, 07:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 4
Default US team silence

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  #19  
Old July 22nd 18, 07:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default US team silence

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You suffering from Cancer? Insomnia? Nausea? Pain? Anxiety? Neuropathy? Or just have the need to get high?
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  #20  
Old July 22nd 18, 10:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 888
Default US team silence

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:03:57 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:09:26 AM UTC-7, Karl Striedieck wrote:
Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of the contest and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and support. It has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our pilots can't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see if any of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for seven days of back page scores.

RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount of gaggling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a lot of that here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous life of yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to mix it up and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests. Yet he finished next to last.

Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls common in Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds, precip and weak lift.

And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots and rarely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.

As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors at this WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented by intense use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here we have very little of this.

Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong weather at future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with great weather. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here found me grovelling on the back page.

Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go Team Go!


Do you have a link to Kawa's letter?

Tom


There is a rant posted on farcebook, the translation of which is sufficiently crude that I don't think it merits reposting. I don't know whether this is the "letter" referred to.

The gist of the rant is:

Sebastian dislikes passionately: flarm radar (apparently open mode flarm was required), line starts (maybe, that's a bit of an inference on my part, also referred to by a respondent on his FB page), block start times, assistance from the ground. In short, he dislikes leeching and the various rules and technology permitted which assist leeching. He also says (new to me) that cloud flying is either being permitted outright or that the prohibitions are not being enforced.

Interestingly... all of the things he dislikes are anticipated and managed by US rules....


Evan Ludeman
 




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