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US team silence



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 22nd 18, 10:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Karl Striedieck[_2_]
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Default US team silence

Here's the lousy machine translation of Kawa's message to the organizers:

I'm sorry, but bitter words have to go down. 90 % of people don't want to take the tour alone and rape the director of the competition. This one gave up and deleted the sports slots for pilots who can't fly on their own. Slots make starting 2-5 min behind the leader counts the same launch time as leader. You can't let someone go and follow it. Now we have: Flarmy without competition mode, mandatory traking, earth tips, no slots on startup, no marker event on startup. It causes a distortion of the professions competition which theoretically would have to identify the best szybowników. Instead, guided tours with guide and radio-controlled models. The competition is to cut the launch line 2-5 minutes after competitors. That's it. No need to read weather, plan, work on the road. Let the leaders do it. The situation is deteriorating year after year after the introduction of flarmu and lack of mandatory competition mode. A whole range of electronic tracking specialists has been raised and those without colored gliders on the screen in szybwocu can't make any decisions. How far away are we from the idea of gliding? Formerly Digital transmission was banned - now deleted, flying on clouds banned - now this ban ignores, help from outside forbidden - now constant communication with earth. And There's a lot of complaints in the air that you don't want to fly on your own. Yeah.

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  #22  
Old July 22nd 18, 11:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Leonard
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Default US team silence

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 3:56:08 PM UTC-6, Karl Striedieck wrote:
Here's the lousy machine translation of Kawa's message to the organizers:


Here's a link to a video interview with Kawa saying about the same thing, a little less garbled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-Y5OKfEjtk

  #23  
Old July 22nd 18, 11:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default US team silence

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:03:57 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:09:26 AM UTC-7, Karl Striedieck wrote:
Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of the contest and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and support. It has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our pilots can't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see if any of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for seven days of back page scores.

RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount of gaggling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a lot of that here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous life of yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to mix it up and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests. Yet he finished next to last.

Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls common in Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds, precip and weak lift.

And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots and rarely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.

As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors at this WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented by intense use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here we have very little of this.

Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong weather at future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with great weather. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here found me grovelling on the back page.

Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go Team Go!


Do you have a link to Kawa's letter?

Tom


There is a rant posted on farcebook, the translation of which is sufficiently crude that I don't think it merits reposting. I don't know whether this is the "letter" referred to.

The gist of the rant is:

Sebastian dislikes passionately: flarm radar (apparently open mode flarm was required), line starts (maybe, that's a bit of an inference on my part, also referred to by a respondent on his FB page), block start times, assistance from the ground. In short, he dislikes leeching and the various rules and technology permitted which assist leeching. He also says (new to me) that cloud flying is either being permitted outright or that the prohibitions are not being enforced.

Interestingly... all of the things he dislikes are anticipated and managed by US rules....


Evan Ludeman


Error above: Sebastian preferred the blocked start times, but the organizers abandoned this towards the end of the contest for some reason.
  #24  
Old July 23rd 18, 03:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Default US team silence

I heard that the pre-start furball was even worse with the start intervals. with the start intervals, on an iffy day, everyone wants to go at the same second. Without start intervals, people don't mind being a few seconds behind at the start, or a minute or five. Rumor was at least one team was threatening to stand down if the start intervals came back.

  #25  
Old July 23rd 18, 03:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Default US team silence

Mak had help from the Australian team, particularly Matthew Scutter in 2016. I presume they also were cooperating on at least the final day in 2018 based on their start and finish times.
  #26  
Old July 23rd 18, 04:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Default US team silence

I got the following response to a similar post on another forum from Aus team members Allan Barnes.
G.Dales statement is most interesting



There's a dichotomy between selecting the winner of the Nationals (rightly an individual honour) and selecting the best team pilots for the Worlds. With the current formulaic selection process, we only have the Nationals to select from. So we are selecting on ability to fly well independently, where for the Worlds, what we need to select on is ability to stick with busy gaggles and resist the impulse to do your own thing. I love team flying at international comps - there is no better fun than flying with a partner and having two sets of eyes and two brains to improve decision making. Jim and I have worked really well here at Ostrow. There is no question that it improves outcomes if done properly. But for that you need discipline and commitment, and practice.

Adam has been playing the gaggle game at this comp and doing a fantastic job of it. If you religiously stay with a gaggle of top pilots and have a glider that can keep up with them, then you are almost guaranteed a good result, even without a team partner. The rest of the gaggle becomes your de-facto team. It is hard for us as Australian pilots, brought up with the idea that leaching is despicable, to embrace this approach. But there is no shame at it at the Worlds. If you are not doing it, you are at the very bottom of the points table, almost every day.

As G Dale said to me this competition: We're not here to show that we're better pilots than the rest. We're here to get more points than the rest. And like it or not, that's not the same thing.

Whether you agree with it or not, that's the reality of flying at a Worlds.

I'm not suggesting that we start selecting team pilots on a subjective basis or by committee vote. Every Nationals pilot needs to know that if they perform well enough they will be on the team. But I do think that there's scope for selecting the first pilot in each class by results, and the second pilot in the class based on who would work best with that first pilot.

As for pair flying in a Nationals, it remains against the rules and that's fine. The true problem is enforcement and proof of pre-arranged intent. A pilot may legitimately decide that their best tactic is to hook up with a top pilot pre-start and shadow them around the whole task, every day. Perfect training for the Worlds, in fact. If the pilot does that off their own bat then it's not team flying. But if the two pilots discuss and agree beforehand then it is. How do you distinguish the two cases from track logs alone? You can't.

I've heard the opinion that if a rule is not enforceable then it shouldn't be in the rulebook. I disagree. The rules describe how we want the competition to be conducted. We don't want cloud flying, we can't enforce it, but it's still in the rules. If someone cloud flies, and they end up winning the day, then they will know it's a hollow victory, and many of their competitors will at least suspect as much. If this forms a pattern of behaviour then their reputation and respect will rapidly diminish.

So back to Worlds selection. My proposal would be this: Keep the Nationals as an individual event. Select the top pilot based on results. And select their partner based on who would be most likely to add value to the team effort. The pilot selected on results would make a case for who should be their partner, and this would normally be accepted by the Sports Committee unless they considered it inappropriate. This system still guarantees a place to any pilot who makes the grade, but gives flexibility to ensure that we don't send a team who has never had a chance to practice together, or are fundamentally incompatible.

It's a thrill and a privilege to fly for Australia at a Worlds, and it's something I think every comp pilot should aspire to. Right now it's 4:30am and raining, but I'm still pleased to be here!

  #27  
Old July 23rd 18, 05:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 287
Default US team silence

At 03:26 23 July 2018, Charlie Quebec wrote:

There's a dichotomy between selecting the winner of the Nationals

(rightly an individual honour) and selecting the best team pilots for
the Worlds. With the current formulaic selection process, we only
have the Nationals to select from. So we are selecting on ability to
fly well independently, where for the Worlds, what we need to select
on is ability to stick with busy gaggles and resist the impulse to do
your own thing. I love team flying at international comps - there is
no better fun than flying with a partner and having two sets of eyes
and two brains to improve decision making. Jim and I have worked
really well here at Ostrow. There is no question that it improves
outcomes if done properly. But for that you need discipline and
commitment, and practice.

Adam has been playing the gaggle game at this comp and doing a
fantastic job of it. If you religiously stay with a gaggle of top pilots
and have a glider that can keep up with them, then you are almost
guaranteed a good result, even without a team partner. The rest of
the gaggle becomes your de-facto team. It is hard for us as
Australian pilots, brought up with the idea that leaching is
despicable, to embrace this approach. But there is no shame at it at
the Worlds. If you are not doing it, you are at the very bottom of the
points table, almost every day.

As G Dale said to me this competition: We're not here to show that

we're better pilots than the rest. We're here to get more points than
the rest. And like it or not, that's not the same thing.

Whether you agree with it or not, that's the reality of flying at a
Worlds.

CQ,

That is exactly the point I was trying to make about the USA team
too. The reality of a WGC is that if you want to do well, you have to
possess an excellent gaggle flying skill set to put in your toolbox
to use as required - and it will be required on multiple occasions.
The current USA rules and thought process are to defuse gaggle
flying due to safety issues, and that's fine, but we have to be aware
that it may be detrimental to choosing a team that will finish well at
the WGC. The SSA charter says that the purpose of a Nationals is to
determine a National Champion. It doesn't say that the purpose is
to pick members of a team to represent the USA at a WGC. A
National Champion may be a great "lone eagle" pilot, but a lousy
gaggle flyer, so that pilot's WGC chances are greatly diminished right
from the start.

RO

  #28  
Old July 23rd 18, 08:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Posts: 253
Default US team silence

Perhaps you need to run a seperate selection process, where say nationals top ten flyoff as teams.
  #29  
Old July 23rd 18, 09:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Retting
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Posts: 121
Default US team silence

“Tour de France” ala gliding. After reading the info provided here, it seems the competition is to find the best pilot performing many things OTHER than maximizing
the converting of energy mother nature provides to speed across the ground, aka Sailplane Racing. Interfacing with that energy engine and watching what others can do is what draws me to the sport. I am grateful to those who advance the science over the years and marvel at what we do.
WGC has its draw on many, but leaves doubt in my mine as who is the best individual racer. The complexity shadows the talent.
Thanks for the posts.
R
  #30  
Old July 23rd 18, 12:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul T[_4_]
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Posts: 233
Default US team silence

You really have to wonder what skills WGC's are really testing, and
whether its worth the expense of participating these days. The modern
form of 'competition' at world level seems to have lost something - and
should it be a 'team' game or an 'individual' game?

 




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