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Basic Training Gliders



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 4th 05, 01:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Basic Training Gliders

Once upon a time there was the K13. It was/is a good
basic trainer that is safe and suitable for all basic
training needs, but over the years it has become less
suitable for teaching pilots to fly modern high performance
sailplanes. It is also draughty and noisy (my voice
usually gives up after a day's instructing in one due
to having to shout over the airleaks coming in around
the canopy) and not good at accomodating tall or heavy
pilots. As they are getting on a bit, we are no longer
permitted to teach aerobatics in them - at my club
anyway.

Then Schleicher replaced it with the K21 which in many
respects is much better, but it won't spin very convincingly,
if at all, which cuts out a very important element
of the training syllabus.

On the other hand, most of the East European trainers
spin far too well and too easily and can kill people.
Can't comment on American trainers, because I have
never flown one.

The advanced training requirement is very well covered
by such gliders as the Duo Discus, DG500/1000, ASH
25, but there doesn't seem to a modern equivalent of
the K13 for basic training! Unless anybody knows of
one that is?

Could I suggest the following specification:

1) Safe and easy to fly
2) Simple fixed gear undercarriage
3) Easy ground handling (our club is now buying retractable
gear DG1000s, but they are a complete pain on the ground)
4) Fully aerobatic, including good spinning characteristics
5) Must be capable of flying all the exercises in the
training syllabus
6) Enough performance to make reasonable cross-country
flights, but not so much as to make it difficult to
get students down.
7) Small enough for easy hangarage - wingspan not more
than 17 or 18 metres.

Is there such a perfect training glider produced anywhere
in the World, or about to be? I am sure that there
is a market to be cornered if there is.

Derek Copeland



  #2  
Old December 4th 05, 01:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Basic Training Gliders

In article ,
Derek Copeland wrote:

Once upon a time there was the K13. It was/is a good
basic trainer that is safe and suitable for all basic
training needs, but over the years it has become less
suitable for teaching pilots to fly modern high performance
sailplanes. It is also draughty and noisy (my voice
usually gives up after a day's instructing in one due
to having to shout over the airleaks coming in around
the canopy) and not good at accomodating tall or heavy
pilots.


Yeah, I'm 1.8m (which is not that much) and 110 kg (ahem) and I have
trouble with full aileron in the K13.



Then Schleicher replaced it with the K21 which in many
respects is much better, but it won't spin very convincingly,
if at all, which cuts out a very important element
of the training syllabus.


Nice glider otherwise. As far as I know there are none here in NZ, but
I've flown ones in Arizona (Turf) and California (Cal City). Very
pleasant, though doesn't seem to perform as well as the Grob twins.


On the other hand, most of the East European trainers
spin far too well and too easily and can kill people.
Can't comment on American trainers, because I have
never flown one.


Me either, but the Blanik is a pretty good East European trainer. Same
sort of performance as the K13, spins well (the spin entries are
especially convincing from quite a "normal" attitude with the "wrong"
but gradual and gentle control inputs. Stops spinning well, every
single time.

You can still buy them new.


The advanced training requirement is very well covered
by such gliders as the Duo Discus, DG500/1000, ASH
25, but there doesn't seem to a modern equivalent of
the K13 for basic training! Unless anybody knows of
one that is?


Our club moved from Blaniks to Grob twins (original retractable Twin
Astirs, bought well used) about ten years ago, and they've served us
well, along with a Janus for more advanced training. We're now in the
process of moving to fixed undercarriage DG1000's, which appear to be
able to do everything the Grobs can do, everything the Janus can do
(except teach you flaps) and everything the Blanik can do (spins and
general aero).



Could I suggest the following specification:

1) Safe and easy to fly
2) Simple fixed gear undercarriage
3) Easy ground handling (our club is now buying retractable
gear DG1000s, but they are a complete pain on the ground)
4) Fully aerobatic, including good spinning characteristics
5) Must be capable of flying all the exercises in the
training syllabus
6) Enough performance to make reasonable cross-country
flights, but not so much as to make it difficult to
get students down.
7) Small enough for easy hangarage - wingspan not more
than 17 or 18 metres.


Other than the fully aerobatic I think you just described the PW6. Or
the Puchacz (but I really don't know if I'd want to do extended spinning
in them, given the history).

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------
  #3  
Old December 4th 05, 03:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Basic Training Gliders


"Derek Copeland" wrote in
message ...
Once upon a time there was the K13. It was/is a good
basic trainer that is safe and suitable for all basic
training needs, but over the years it has become less
suitable for teaching pilots to fly modern high performance
sailplanes. It is also draughty and noisy (my voice
usually gives up after a day's instructing in one due
to having to shout over the airleaks coming in around
the canopy) and not good at accomodating tall or heavy
pilots. As they are getting on a bit, we are no longer
permitted to teach aerobatics in them - at my club
anyway.

Then Schleicher replaced it with the K21 which in many
respects is much better, but it won't spin very convincingly,
if at all, which cuts out a very important element
of the training syllabus.

On the other hand, most of the East European trainers
spin far too well and too easily and can kill people.
Can't comment on American trainers, because I have
never flown one.

The advanced training requirement is very well covered
by such gliders as the Duo Discus, DG500/1000, ASH
25, but there doesn't seem to a modern equivalent of
the K13 for basic training! Unless anybody knows of
one that is?

Could I suggest the following specification:

1) Safe and easy to fly
2) Simple fixed gear undercarriage
3) Easy ground handling (our club is now buying retractable
gear DG1000s, but they are a complete pain on the ground)
4) Fully aerobatic, including good spinning characteristics
5) Must be capable of flying all the exercises in the
training syllabus
6) Enough performance to make reasonable cross-country
flights, but not so much as to make it difficult to
get students down.
7) Small enough for easy hangarage - wingspan not more
than 17 or 18 metres.

Is there such a perfect training glider produced anywhere
in the World, or about to be? I am sure that there
is a market to be cornered if there is.

Derek Copeland




I'd agree with all except the rigidly fixed gear. Even if not retractable,
I'd want some shock damping - my back hurts from all the student hard
landings. I'd also want really good visibility from the instructor seat.

Bill Daniels

  #4  
Old December 4th 05, 06:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Basic Training Gliders

This has been a bit slow to get to market, but $50K...XC not so hot
though
http://www.peregrinesailplane.com/
This fits most requirements and two-person rig/derig
http://jarek24.w.interia.pl/pw/pw6e.htm
See also
http://www.soargbsc.com/GBSC/Soaring...2002.05.21.htm

Frank Whiteley

  #5  
Old December 4th 05, 01:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: n/a
Default Basic Training Gliders

At 02:48 04 December 2005, Bill Daniels wrote:

'I'd agree with all except the rigidly fixed gear.
Even if not retractable,

I'd want some shock damping - my back hurts from all
the student hard
landings. I'd also want really good visibility from
the instructor seat.

Bill Daniels

I meant fixed gear in the sense of non-retractable,
rather than unsprung, so I totally agree with Bill
on that one. Also on the good visibility from the back
seat, which is another failing of the DG1000. The front
cockpit has a largish headrest that almost completely
blocks the forward view from the rear cockpit. In Europe,
because the DG1000 is certified by EASA, we are not
even allowed to remove it, as it is specified in the
type certificate! While a headrest may be an important
safety item in a car to protect you from whiplash in
a rear end shunt, I am still trying to work out in
what circumstances a glider might get rammed from behind?!!!!!!
Stupid F***ing Bureaucrats!

Can I add to my wish list easy two man rigging and
derigging and self connecting controls? Many current
trainers need about an eight man rigging team, which
is another disincentive to flying the things cross-country.

Derek Copeland




  #6  
Old December 4th 05, 05:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Basic Training Gliders

Bill

PW-6U has what you want.

I'd agree with all except the rigidly fixed gear. Even if not retractable,
I'd want some shock damping - my back hurts from all the student hard
landings. I'd also want really good visibility from the instructor seat.

Bill Daniels


--
Charles Yeates

Swidnik PW-6U & PW-5
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html







  #7  
Old December 4th 05, 06:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Basic Training Gliders

For the ASK-21 is a "spin-weight" available which can be installed on the
rudder. Of course you have to weigh the pilots before deciding which weights to
add to the glider.

But then you have a very nice trainer with which you can also train spins.

CU
Markus
  #8  
Old December 4th 05, 06:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Basic Training Gliders


The PW-6 takes min pilot weight of 120lbs in front and up to 441lbs in
two seats with no ballast requirements. Spins too.

For the ASK-21 is a "spin-weight" available which can be installed on
the rudder. Of course you have to weigh the pilots before deciding which
weights to add to the glider.

But then you have a very nice trainer with which you can also train spins.

CU
Markus



  #9  
Old December 4th 05, 07:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Basic Training Gliders

For a number of years the USAF Test Pilots School has
used our ASK-21 for their spin training syllabus.
It spins very well, recovers predictably, they seem
very happy with it. Of course, they add variable amounts
of rear-mounted ballast weights and calculate the CG
with care for each flight.

The gentle handling of the 21 makes it preferable to
other glass 2-seaters for low-time pilots, it is really
quite hard to drop it in hard enough to hurt your back,
and it is very durable in all respects. Factory support
is also excellent.

And the performance is good enough for X-C and use
of available lift to get to spin entry altitudes from
a low tow / winch launch - though perhaps not in early-morning
still air conditions.

Is there really a better alternative at the same or
lower cost ?

Ian




At 17:06 04 December 2005, Markus Gayda wrote:
For the ASK-21 is a 'spin-weight' available which can
be installed on the
rudder. Of course you have to weigh the pilots before
deciding which weights to
add to the glider.

But then you have a very nice trainer with which you
can also train spins.

CU
Markus




  #10  
Old December 4th 05, 07:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: n/a
Default Basic Training Gliders

On 4 Dec 2005 00:02:42 GMT, Derek Copeland
wrote:

1) Safe and easy to fly
2) Simple fixed gear undercarriage
3) Easy ground handling (our club is now buying retractable
gear DG1000s, but they are a complete pain on the ground)
4) Fully aerobatic, including good spinning characteristics
5) Must be capable of flying all the exercises in the
training syllabus
6) Enough performance to make reasonable cross-country
flights, but not so much as to make it difficult to
get students down.
7) Small enough for easy hangarage - wingspan not more
than 17 or 18 metres.

Is there such a perfect training glider produced anywhere
in the World, or about to be? I am sure that there
is a market to be cornered if there is.



ASK-21.
Simply install the (now) approved spin-kit which makes spins possible
in the ASK-21 by installing lead weights in the tail.


Bye
Andreas
 




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