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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 14th 18, 07:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 12:03:54 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 10:45:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:42:33 PM UTC-7, b4soaring wrote:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 14:53:27 UTC, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs

Basic principles of instruction:
-- ground briefing
-- instructor demonstration
-- student attempt

Winch launch failure instruction:
-- full climb, low level, land ahead
-- full climb, higher up, can't land ahead
-- full climb, random height, gradual power failure

That's a minimum of 6 launch failures. Where I'm from we also do an initial climb launch failure (pre full climb), instructor demo only (more training accidents than real accidents.) So that's an absolute minimum of 7 instructional launch failures.

The good news is that winch launching is really easy, easier than aerotowing. A competent pilot will learn to winch launch in 4 or 5 flights, so your 15 launch suggestion is do-able, but I would include more launch failures. For ab initio training we do a lot more launch failures before and after solo, just to reinforce the "expect a launch failure every launch" mindset.

Currency is very important. The shape of the airfield will also affect safety, a nice big round grass airfield will be very different to a commercial airfield.


I PM'D Gary at first. I agree with the above, though I would suggest that about 20 is the right number. Before emergencies, 5-6 'normal' launches so that the pilot understands what they are trying to achieve consistently. Then work on the 'breaks' and post break options and gotchas. Then a few more consistency checks and speed up, slow down signalling. Wing rock is deprecated. These exercises also keep winch drivers on their toes. I can often tell from the winch who is flying the two-seaters by the way they rotate and their climb attitude to 400-500 feet.

Frank Whiteley


Club syllabus. Needs some minor revision. We used flags but now use airband radios on our licensed frequency.

http://www.soarcsa.org/index.php?page=training Documents.

http://www.soarcsa.org/uploads/file/...ngSyllabus.pdf

http://www.soarcsa.org/index.php?page=winch-operations

You are welcome to borrow, adapt, or critique any of the above.

Frank Whiteley



Winch procedures manual referred to above.

http://www.soarcsa.org/uploads/file/...inchManual.pdf
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  #22  
Old February 14th 18, 01:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Kiwi User
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:33:16 -0800, Frank Whiteley wrote:

Local knowledge was pretty useful.

Exactly.

There's a fairly recognisable lake 2km or so south and roughly in line
with the runway and the buildings of Skelling farm stand out well, just
west of the southern end. Coming from the closest point on the hill, the
line of trees on the east side of the runway is easier to see in real
life than in the video, and in any case trailers near one end of the
trees and gliders at the launch point generally stand out well.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
  #23  
Old February 16th 18, 02:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Longley
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

Just don’t do winch launches.

Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!
  #24  
Old February 16th 18, 04:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

"Just don’t do winch launches"

What a short-sighted view. The economics of gliding are already keeping new members from joining the sport - and will just get worse in the future. Winch launching is a cost-effective launch method which can effectively launch gliders at a 1/10 of the cost of aerotowing. This is a major factor especially during the training phase where launches and landing are the critical skills for new pilots to learn. With proper training, winch launching should be no more dangerous than aerotowing.
  #25  
Old February 16th 18, 05:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Longley
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

To each his own. You’ll never see me on a winch tow.
  #26  
Old February 16th 18, 11:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

I used to think that, overcoming my fear made me a much better pilot, took about 6 training flights, plus a couple of simulated cable breaks.i learnt to fly much better highly modified circuits too.
Only time I would be reluctant to winch is in calm conditions with full water.
  #27  
Old February 16th 18, 12:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 12:16:31 AM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
To each his own. You’ll never see me on a winch tow.


Never mind the money, winch launching is fun.
  #28  
Old February 16th 18, 12:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

Quoted text
"Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!"

PROBABLY A WISE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMIDATED BY GROUND LAUNCHING. BTW. THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE, SAFE WINCH THAN AEROTOWS DAILY AND YEARLY WORLD WIDE BASIS. SOME GLIDERPORTS DOING HUNDREDS PER DAY AND NOTMTO MENTION THE RESULTING MORE COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED PILOTS, ESPECIALLY AT LOW ALTITUDES AND VARIETY OF CIRCUITS.
  #29  
Old February 16th 18, 01:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 03:59:27 -0800, davidlawley wrote:

I used to think that, overcoming my fear made me a much better pilot,
took about 6 training flights, plus a couple of simulated cable breaks.i
learnt to fly much better highly modified circuits too.
Only time I would be reluctant to winch is in calm conditions with full
water.


To put numbers on winch training, I soloed on my 79th launch, taking most
of one summer season, flying only on weekends and a bit under 17 hours
air time, flying a mix of ASK-21, G103 and Puchacz. I think the higher
number of launches to solo compared with aerotows is a positive benefit,
simply because students have flown a larger number of landings by the
time they solo.

The rule of thumb we use for ab initio winch training is that the number
of flights to solo is your age in years plus 30: I was in my early 50s at
the time.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
  #30  
Old February 16th 18, 02:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Longley
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Posts: 69
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:07:05 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Quoted text
"Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!"

PROBABLY A WISE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMIDATED BY GROUND LAUNCHING.. BTW. THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE, SAFE WINCH THAN AEROTOWS DAILY AND YEARLY WORLD WIDE BASIS. SOME GLIDERPORTS DOING HUNDREDS PER DAY AND NOTMTO MENTION THE RESULTING MORE COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED PILOTS, ESPECIALLY AT LOW ALTITUDES AND VARIETY OF CIRCUITS.


Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.
 




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