A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old January 13th 06, 07:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"ET" wrote in message
...
"John Doe" wrote in
ink.net:

How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are
flying with boarder patrol along the Mexico. Why can't the UAV just
fly along under an IFR flight plan and everyone else just avoid the
little thing just like any other plane on an IFR flight plan?

When there is so much talk about securing the boarders, I can't
imagine that there is any strip of the boarder that we can not monitor
by radar.




The UAV is primarily looking at the ground....


Really? Gee and here this whole time I thought it was a cheap AWACS.....not
sh*t it's looking at the ground.

Ok, maybe I better explain my question.

The ISSUE seems to be deconfliction between the UAV flying boarder patrol
and VFR aircraft to ensure the two shall not collide.



  #12  
Old January 13th 06, 07:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"Bob Fry" wrote in message
news
"JD" == John Doe writes:

JD Why can't the UAV just fly along under an IFR flight plan and
JD everyone else just avoid the little thing just like any other
JD plane on an IFR flight plan?

Because that's not the way it works in VMC. In VMC, *everybody*
avoids everybody else visually, as well as with other aids (ATC). So
if the "little thing" is flying, and I'm flying, and it's VMC and I'm
not talking to ATC, and I don't see that "little thing", and of course
nobody is onboard the UAV to see me....midairs happen.

Ok, you just contradicted yourself.

If you're flying in VMC and you don't see that "little thing", and have a
midair, it's your fault. Why does it matter if anyone is on board the UAV
or not?

Personally I think a NOTAM saying when/where the UAVs will be should be
enough for VFR pilots to avoid the thing. Why do we need a TFR?


  #13  
Old January 13th 06, 07:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"Stubby" wrote in message
...
John Doe wrote:
How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are
flying with boarder patrol along the Mexico. Why can't the UAV just fly
along under an IFR flight plan and everyone else just avoid the little
thing just like any other plane on an IFR flight plan?

The "UAVs" are really remotely-piloted vehicles. The pilots are
instrument rated and the planes are on IFR flight plans. That info comes
from a USMC pilot of one of them.


I understand that and it has nothing to do with my question....but thanks
for playing.


  #14  
Old January 13th 06, 07:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"sfb" wrote in message news:r6Pxf.9$MG1.6@trnddc05...
Maybe IFR from their base to the border, but when doing surveillance of
the border, the UAV will often loiter in an area which presents a
challenge to maintaining IFR separation.


ATC provides IFR seperation to aircraft all over the world. Why is our
boarder with Mexico so difficult?



  #15  
Old January 13th 06, 07:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

If you're flying in VMC and you don't see that "little thing", and have a
midair, it's your fault.


It's also partly the UAV's fault. Everything is required to see and
avaoid in VMC.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #16  
Old January 13th 06, 07:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm not sure how that relates to anything. ATC does not seperate IFR
pilots from non-partisipating VFR pilots. IFR pilots are required to
see-and-avoid just as much as VFR pilots. This TFR is a way around the
see-and-avoid requirement.

-Robert


I understand that, but if a TFR is the FAA's answer to UAVs, we're in for a
world of hurt for GA in this country.


  #17  
Old January 13th 06, 07:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder(sic)


"John Doe" wrote in message
ink.net...
The UAV is primarily looking at the ground....


Really? Gee and here this whole time I thought it was a cheap
AWACS.....not sh*t it's looking at the ground.

Ok, maybe I better explain my question.

The ISSUE seems to be deconfliction between the UAV flying boarder patrol
and VFR aircraft to ensure the two shall not collide.




The whole problem seems to be the conflict between border and boarder.
Introducing two separate and distinct subjects confuses some of our
readers.(LOL)

Tex



  #18  
Old January 13th 06, 07:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:38:33 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote in . net::

How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?


I would suspect the answer to that question is, very little. But
that's not the question we should be asking.

Why does baby Bush deploy UAVs for the mission of securing the
nation's southern border? Because UAVs cost millions of dollars, and
require a crew of 7 on the ground to operate them, not to mention the
airspace grab through TFRs, the money spent on this non-hostile
mission would be much better spent on live bodies in Cessna C-182s
equipped with IR sensors. UAVs are useful for missions on which the
potential for loss of crew is a factor, and about four times more
costly to operate than conventional manned surveillance aircraft. If
the Bush administration's goal were truly boarder security, they could
field four times as many manned observation/surveillance aircraft.


I completely agree. I think the problem is, there are UAVs that are
available now and it's an immediate bandaid to the problem. What we need is
a call for bids for a long term contract for airborne ISR to work with/for
the boarder patrol. I don't know of any fleet of aircraft/pilots that are
standing by and waiting to do this job.

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are
flying
with boarder patrol along the Mexico.


And well there should be. The current UAVs lack the ability to comply
with FARs requiring aircraft to maintain _visual_ separation in VMC.

Why can't the UAV just fly along under an IFR flight plan and everyone
else just avoid the little thing just like any other plane on an IFR
flight plan?


Because, in VMC the UAVs are unable to comply with federal
regulations.


Guess it's time to change the FARs to welcome UAVs to US airspace....(like
it or not, they're here)

When there is so much talk about securing the boarders, I can't imagine
that
there is any strip of the boarder that we can not monitor by radar.


The borders are unsecured, because the Bush administration doesn't
want to secure them. The UAVs are being deployed to establish a
precedent for remote domestic surveillance, in my opinion, not to
secure the nation's borders. Given the cost involved, what other
reason for UAV deployment makes sense?



Politics to show that the administration is doing something to address the
problem. I call it Bandaid Politics.


  #19  
Old January 13th 06, 07:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"Richard Riley" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:46:12 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:


:Why can't the UAV just fly along under an IFR flight plan and everyone
:else just avoid the little thing just like any other plane on an IFR
flight plan?

They will. The problem is the VFR guy with no electrical system and
no transponder, barreling through and not seeing the UAV.


Then the VFR guy needs to get his eyesight checked. How is that any
different from hitting someone else. Are you telling me that in every
previous case of a mid-air that blame was shared 50/50 between the two
parties?

Next, These UAVs are probably flying 10,000 along the boarder. How many
VFR "guys" with no electrical system, radios, transponder, etc are going to
be a) that close to the boarder and 2) that high?

I'm not really that opposed to ops along the boarder. My concern is when
UAVs spread to other areas around the country, metro areas, police actions,
etc and now we start having TFRs or worse all over the place.



  #20  
Old January 13th 06, 07:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"Jose" wrote in message
...
The RFP for the southern border project specified UAV's with 12 hour
endurance, synthetic aperture radar and a laser illuminator as well as
a FLIR system, light amplification cameras, comm relay for ground
agents, a mode S transponder and a pile of other stuff. You have a
182 and a crew that can do that?



Sounds like politics to me. Defense industry at it's best. There's big
bucks in this stuff and no one wants to give that up for a bunch of bush
pilots out in the desert. You're talking about $10 million or more for a
UAV with all that stuff on board. Just think about how many C-182s (or
whatever) you could run for that amount of cash. I wouldn't need 1 C-182 to
fly 12 hours. I could have 6 of them flying 2 hours each. (or whatever).

I'm not fighting China here folks, most of that stuff is fancy overkill.
(what about the tunnel found in California, none of that stuff would have
found that)

A pilot and spotter with a pair of bino's during the day and NVGs at night
would work just fine. A beefed up laser pointer would work just as well
from 1-2000' feet. Comm relay for ground agents? Comm on, they've all got
cell phones. Transponder, gee that's tough.




 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.