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  #21  
Old July 30th 19, 08:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:25:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I would choose ADSB over PowerFlarm now, for a glider and a towplane.


Yeah, right, I'm not holding my breath for all those club gliders to get ADS-B out! PF is the way to go for gliders; of course ideally, tow planes should have both.

Kirk
  #22  
Old July 30th 19, 10:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Joel Flamenbaum[_2_]
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On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 10:32:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 1:22:47 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
Glider releases, does a right 360° Tow plane does a left 360° I've seen this so many times. They end up back to the same spot. It is often taught this way. Neither plane can see the other until it's too late. Each plane should only do a 20° turn and the glider should be able to keep sight of the tow plane until it is well below the glider. When neither of the pilots can see the other plane, and they are both doing a 360° it is bound to end badly... We need to teach the glider pilots to keep an eye on the tow until it is below us. I don't know if this is what happened in this tragic accident, but it sounds like it might be the case?

Boggs


I agree we should teach the glider pilots to keep an eye on the towplane after release. The glider may do a 360 after release if in lift. But why would the towplane do a 360? At our club the towplane, after turning to the left, typically flies in a straight line until well away from the release point and thus hopefully from the glider. (Not implying anything about this specific tragic accident.)


Could not agree more - also have been on both sides of the "rope" High wing, low wing - IMHO a tow plane pilot should (never)seldom if ever do a 360 after glider releases -unless an extreme emergency why would they? I (always) eased back on power and"dove slightly out of range and entered pattern ASAP for another tow or to GTFOOTW. My opinion
  #23  
Old July 31st 19, 01:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 12:45:36 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:25:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I would choose ADSB over PowerFlarm now, for a glider and a towplane.


Yeah, right, I'm not holding my breath for all those club gliders to get ADS-B out! PF is the way to go for gliders; of course ideally, tow planes should have both.

Kirk


Kirk, with respect, are you holding your breath for all those club gliders to get Flarm? ADSB is CLEARLY the 'way to go' for best traffic awareness in the USA.
  #24  
Old July 31st 19, 01:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
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On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 12:45:36 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:25:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I would choose ADSB over PowerFlarm now, for a glider and a towplane.


Yeah, right, I'm not holding my breath for all those club gliders to get ADS-B out! PF is the way to go for gliders; of course ideally, tow planes should have both.

Kirk


Kirk, with respect, are you holding your breath for all those club gliders to get Flarm? ADSB is CLEARLY the 'way to go' for best traffic awareness in the USA.


I totally agree. FLARM may be OK for contests, but for those of us who soar recreationally, GA and airliners are just as big a threat as other gliders.

I was talking to uAvionix at Oshkosh last week, and they have the perfect solution for us: SkyEcho2 (https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/). It is 1090ES ADS-B OUT and dual band ADS-B IN and supports FLARM. Cost is ~$500. The only problem is that it is not FCC or FAA approved in the US. We need to get the SSA and AOPA on the bandwagon to get this approved.
  #25  
Old July 31st 19, 01:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
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Kirk, with respect, are you holding your breath for all those club gliders to get Flarm? ADSB is CLEARLY the 'way to go' for best traffic awareness in the USA.

Traffic awareness=head down in cockpit looking at a screen (ADS-B). Aural warning of conflicting traffic with direction=see and avoid (FLARM). Glider algorithms with few false alarms (FLARM). What development/testing of ADS-B in gliders has been done? How does it handle busy thermals?

  #26  
Old July 31st 19, 05:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 5:50:11 PM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
Kirk, with respect, are you holding your breath for all those club gliders to get Flarm? ADSB is CLEARLY the 'way to go' for best traffic awareness in the USA.


Traffic awareness=head down in cockpit looking at a screen (ADS-B). Aural warning of conflicting traffic with direction=see and avoid (FLARM). Glider algorithms with few false alarms (FLARM). What development/testing of ADS-B in gliders has been done? How does it handle busy thermals?


What is unnerving is the number of targets that I get alerts that I never see, even knowing where to look.

Tom
  #27  
Old July 31st 19, 03:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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"What is unnerving is the number of targets that I get alerts that I never see, even knowing where to look."

Yep, commonplace with me. A major value of Flarm is awareness of nearby traffic and using that to stay well clear, especially when not visual.

I was happily leeching a couple hundred feet below a buddy when Flarm dropped the target.

I promptly left the the thermal. We arranged separation on the radio. Flarm contact remained intermittent.

Later inspection of the other glider showed the antenna was partly detached with the tip touching the fuselage. It's been refastened and will be monitored.

Need to make an incident report.
  #28  
Old July 31st 19, 04:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 8:47:16 PM UTC-4, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 12:45:36 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:25:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I would choose ADSB over PowerFlarm now, for a glider and a towplane.

Yeah, right, I'm not holding my breath for all those club gliders to get ADS-B out! PF is the way to go for gliders; of course ideally, tow planes should have both.

Kirk


Kirk, with respect, are you holding your breath for all those club gliders to get Flarm? ADSB is CLEARLY the 'way to go' for best traffic awareness in the USA.


I totally agree. FLARM may be OK for contests, but for those of us who soar recreationally, GA and airliners are just as big a threat as other gliders.

I was talking to uAvionix at Oshkosh last week, and they have the perfect solution for us: SkyEcho2 (https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/). It is 1090ES ADS-B OUT and dual band ADS-B IN and supports FLARM. Cost is ~$500. The only problem is that it is not FCC or FAA approved in the US. We need to get the SSA and AOPA on the bandwagon to get this approved.


Interesting. What do you mean by "supports FLARM"?

But I would argue with your statement that "GA and airliners are just as big a threat as other gliders". That depends where you are flying. In our area (Northern New England, USA) there is some GA traffic (which are visible and audible on PowerFLARM if they have ADS-B), but I think other gliders are the bigger threat since we concentrate near cloudbase in certain small areas such as over the high ridges and under cloud streets.

It is a shame that the ADS-B system is so byzantine, power-hungry and expensive. Theoretically, if it was ubiquitous in gliders, we could have displays that use algorithms similar to FLARM to avoid alerts about your towplane or gaggle-mates. Instead some of us install PowerFLARM, which does warn us about powered traffic that transmits ADS-B, but does not make us visible to them.
  #29  
Old July 31st 19, 04:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
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On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 10:11:04 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 8:47:16 PM UTC-4, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 12:45:36 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:25:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I would choose ADSB over PowerFlarm now, for a glider and a towplane.

Yeah, right, I'm not holding my breath for all those club gliders to get ADS-B out! PF is the way to go for gliders; of course ideally, tow planes should have both.

Kirk

Kirk, with respect, are you holding your breath for all those club gliders to get Flarm? ADSB is CLEARLY the 'way to go' for best traffic awareness in the USA.


I totally agree. FLARM may be OK for contests, but for those of us who soar recreationally, GA and airliners are just as big a threat as other gliders.

I was talking to uAvionix at Oshkosh last week, and they have the perfect solution for us: SkyEcho2 (https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/). It is 1090ES ADS-B OUT and dual band ADS-B IN and supports FLARM. Cost is ~$500. The only problem is that it is not FCC or FAA approved in the US. We need to get the SSA and AOPA on the bandwagon to get this approved.


Interesting. What do you mean by "supports FLARM"?

But I would argue with your statement that "GA and airliners are just as big a threat as other gliders". That depends where you are flying. In our area (Northern New England, USA) there is some GA traffic (which are visible and audible on PowerFLARM if they have ADS-B), but I think other gliders are the bigger threat since we concentrate near cloudbase in certain small areas such as over the high ridges and under cloud streets.

It is a shame that the ADS-B system is so byzantine, power-hungry and expensive. Theoretically, if it was ubiquitous in gliders, we could have displays that use algorithms similar to FLARM to avoid alerts about your towplane or gaggle-mates. Instead some of us install PowerFLARM, which does warn us about powered traffic that transmits ADS-B, but does not make us visible to them.


The problem with PowerFLARM today is that it does not reliably show you all GA traffic. It does NOT support TIS-B or UAT, so you will not see ADS-B equipped aircraft that use UAT for ADS-B OUT. This is going to be a VERY significant proportion of the GA fleet, given uAvionix's low cost and easy to install SkyBeacon and TailBeacon products.

Unless you have flown in an ADS-B IN and OUT equipped aircraft, you really have no idea of how much traffic is out there, even in remote areas. If you look at where gliders are based in the US, I suspect the majority are in relatively close proximity to major metropolitan areas where GA and airliner threats are significant. Even if you are flying in Janesville, WI (90 miles from ORD), you have jets on approach to O'Hara flying thru your airspace at 7,000 ft.
  #30  
Old July 31st 19, 04:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Posts: 1,260
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On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Kirk, with respect, are you holding your breath for all those club gliders to get Flarm? ADSB is CLEARLY the 'way to go' for best traffic awareness in the USA.


No, it is not "CLEARLY" the way to go. Sure, it would be great if all gliders had a transponder and ADS-B OUT/IN for traffic AWARENESS and PowerFLARM glider mid air collision AVOIDANCE (NOT THE SAME THING, GUYS); but there is absolutely NO WAY that is going to happen in the glider fleet, until someone comes up with an inexpensive transponder/ADS-B out setup for pure gliders. Not seeing that anywhere in the US yet (Europe, yes, of course -sigh....).

I would be that the majority of club gliders don't even have working radios - much less transponders!

So given the economics of it - my first choice (for gliders, not motor gliders) is a PowerFLARM, then a transponder/ADS-B setup when it becomes practical - especially for towplanes. And that is what I'm pushing for our club ships (after we get all our radios in and working - almost there!).

Kirk
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