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TOW PLANE Accident



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 21st 19, 03:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Walsh[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default TOW PLANE Accident

...and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the
glider pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob?
In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the
release throughout the tow!
In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the
initial stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few
seconds, but even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold
the release knob.
In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was
certain to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go
of the yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor
manual?
Dave Walsh

  #12  
Old February 21st 19, 03:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:02:56 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:

..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the glider
pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob?
In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the
release throughout the tow!
In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the initial
stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few seconds, but
even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold the release knob.
In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was certain
to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go of the
yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor manual?
Dave Walsh


Agreed.

Two seaters or single seaters and winching or aerotowing, when I'm in
control my left hand is holding the yellow knob from 'taking up slack' to
release.

That's what I was taught and that's what I do. No reason to do otherwise
in our club two-seaters and Juniors or my Libelle.

My only exception has been when moving flaps from negative to zero when
the ailerons bite in an ASW-20 on aero tow, but even then its hand back
on yellow knob right away.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
  #13  
Old February 21st 19, 03:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 504
Default TOW PLANE Accident


Take off/departure accidents seem very preventable. I've made it my job
to work on such prevention at my club and it has, at times, caused me to
be unpopular. Checklist discipline & cockpit discipline at both ends of
the rope save lives. Do it. Let's see if we can get through 2019 with
fewer than our running average of 6 USA gliding related fatalities.

Evan Ludeman / T8


Snip... I commend you for sending the message to your club
members, I think I will have a sign made that says, Don't Kill Your Tow
Pilot, and place it in plain view in the hangar. I am sure someone will ask
the stupid question, "What Does That Mean"!


My first thought-betting-nickel upon reading the NTSB report was,
"Stupidly-preventable-never-shoulda-happened-PIC-assisted-fatality."

Lotsa other thoughts, of course (e.g. Glad I'm not that instructor
*regardless* of actual reason(s) for the crash [feel free to invoke the
ever-ready 'age' rationale, here]. Thanks, NTSB, for the seasonal timeliness
of the reminder! Etc.)

And at the risk of being labeled a Safety Nazi, post that sign in the hangar!
Anyone who seriously asks, "What does that mean?" isn't asking a stupid
question. Others? Well, the continuing, sad, arguably-entirely-preventable,
deplorable history of tuggees killing tuggIES isn't a club anyone with an
ounce of common sense will want to join.

In any event, surely this topic is a discussion that should never be far from
active awareness in every glider pilot's mind...

Bob W.

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  #14  
Old February 21st 19, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Waveguru
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Posts: 178
Default TOW PLANE Accident

I have a long talk with my students about doing nothing else during the first 1000' of the tow except focus on the tow plane, and emergency options. Then, during the first 1000' I ask them to toggle the radio. Then I YELL at them for doing it, and we have another long discussion during post flight about killing tow pilots. I repeat this until they do nothing except focus on the tow plane, and emergence options.
Also, I disagree with holding the release during tow. Turbulence can cause a premature termination of the tow if you are holding the release.

Boggs
  #15  
Old February 21st 19, 04:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default TOW PLANE Accident

I don't hang onto the release during tow.
I never taught to hang onto the release during tow.
In glass ships, we have a looped rope tied to the release and laid across our thigh to make a quick release easier.

Why no holding the release? Many things.....
A sneeze can pull it
Turbulence can pull it
Something sudden (like a bee/wasp flying around) can pull it

You do your thing, I'll do mine.
;-)
  #16  
Old February 21st 19, 04:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy B.
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Posts: 304
Default TOW PLANE Accident

Going back to the original purpose of this posting (help finding a towplane), there is a '76 Pawnee 235 for sale in Canada set up as a sprayer. Low time since overhaul. Expensive. Listed on Barnstormers.
Good luck.
ROY
  #17  
Old February 21st 19, 04:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-5, Dave Walsh wrote:
..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the
glider pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob?
In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the
release throughout the tow!
In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the
initial stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few
seconds, but even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold
the release knob.
In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was
certain to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go
of the yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor
manual?
Dave Walsh


Hanging on the release during aero tow is a bad practice. There's a newspaper article from 6 or 8 years ago featuring an unhappy glider pilot sitting in the wreckage of his Discus too high up in a sycamore tree to do anything other than wait for help. Yep, hung on the release, big bump, popped off much too low to do anything other than pick the tree he wanted to crash into. That one's in the ntsb database if you want to look it up. New York state.

Hand touching, but not grasping the release is acceptable. Hand touching release at beginning of take off roll is desirable, especially if without a wing runner. A lot of ships place other demands on left hand.

Winching is a completely different game. In a properly run winching op, an inadvertent release should never be an emergency, but a dropped wing is immediately life threatening, hence hand on the release is the norm. It's a fact of life that in many aero towing operations, an inadvertent release at 50 - 150' will be an emergency.

best,
Evan
  #18  
Old February 21st 19, 05:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathon May
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Posts: 82
Default TOW PLANE Accident

At 14:30 21 February 2019, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:02:56 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:

..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the glider
pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob?
In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the
release throughout the tow!
In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the

initial
stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few seconds,

but
even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold the release knob.
In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was certain
to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go of the
yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor manual?
Dave Walsh


Agreed.

Two seaters or single seaters and winching or aerotowing, when I'm in
control my left hand is holding the yellow knob from 'taking up slack' to


release.

That's what I was taught and that's what I do. No reason to do otherwise
in our club two-seaters and Juniors or my Libelle.

My only exception has been when moving flaps from negative to zero when
the ailerons bite in an ASW-20 on aero tow, but even then its hand back
on yellow knob right away.


--
Martin | martin at


you need an extended release cable or a piece of line on it so you can hook
it over your hand.
Can't change flap setting otherwise,and you can get in a position with the
stick hard over where you can't get to the handle in discus/ventus type
layout.
Gregorie | gregorie dot org



  #19  
Old February 21st 19, 05:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default TOW PLANE Accident

I have never regretted my decision to retire from towing.

Recently a good friend started to tow and he asked me for advice.Â* I
told him, "Don't let them kill you!Â* Stay alert and release the glider
at the first sign that the pilot is not in control of the glider."

On 2/21/2019 1:52 AM, Jim White wrote:
I am always concerned when I see a camera in the cockpit. The temptation to
be film director as well as pilot is too great. We are only able to apply
full focus to one task at a time. Especially important at critical points
of the flight like the tow, thermalling, circuit, and landing.

At Booker we had a bad accident when a passenger's camera was dropped in
the works. I will not fly passengers holding cameras.

If this accident is as we suspect, then this was totally avoidable and
there would be one more tuggie about.

Jim


--
Dan, 5J
  #20  
Old February 21st 19, 06:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Vaughn Simon[_2_]
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Posts: 67
Default TOW PLANE Accident

On 2/21/2019 10:13 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
I don't hang onto the release during tow.
I never taught to hang onto the release during tow.


I wasn't taught to hold the release during tow, and I don't teach that
to my students. You are more far likely to cause an accident that way
(through PTT) than to ever prevent one.

That said! Every glider pilot should give serious thought to the
position of the left hand during (especially) early tow. Depending on
your glider and its cockpit ergonomics, the answer will not always be
the same. Myself, particularly in 2-place gliders, I often have my
closed fist firmly behind the spoiler handle. (Never with fingers
wrapped around it, because that could also lead to a PTT) This ensure
that the spoilers can't accidentally open, while at the same time
anchoring my hand near the release so that I can instantly grab it if
necessary.

YMMV

By all means, let's do whatever it takes to keep our tow pilots alive!

Vaughn


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