No more "Left Downwind"?

You'll have to tell me. What was the point of your response to my
statement?

I don't know what the point is in responding to any of your statements.
But in any case you were saying "that's not the same thing". If you
are being so pedantic that by "same" you mean "identical", then your
statement is worthless - nothing that happens at one airport is idential
to what happens at a different airport - they are different airports.
But if you take "same" to mean "similar enough", then we merely differ
on how "enough" it is. The two things were the reverse of each other
but shared the property of being out of normal synch for a moment.

The purpose of SVFR in a surface area is usually to get in or out of an
airport within it when it cannot be done under basic VFR. Please explain
how that can be done while remaining above the ceiling of the Class D
airspace.

It cannot. However, if the marginal conditions continue to exist above
the D for some distance into the overlying E, then one can get out of
the airport by flying SFFR through the D, and through however much of
the E is necessary. If SVFR is available in that E, within D's
footprint, then it can be done. If not, then it can't. Sometimes this
makes a difference in being able to get out VFR.

What do you do if you don't find it?

Come back and land.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. com...

Ok. I checked the AIM. A "surface area" is the airspace contained by the
lateral boundries of B, C, D, or E airspace designated for an airport tha
begins at the surface and extends upwards.

Indefinately? To outer space? To the limit of that class airspace?

Special VFR operations are conducted within a class B, C, D, or E surface
area. Class E airspace is controlled airspace that is not A, B, C, or D.

So, if a class D surrounding an airport is overlain by class E, it seems I
should be able to get a special VFR clearance up to 18000 feet (where
class A generally begins). No?


No. The SVFR clearance includes the surface area by name; "Cleared out of
Smallville Class D surface area, maintain Special VFR conditions." Once you
exit the Class D airspace the SVFR clearance no longer applies.

SVFR is also limited to below 10,000 MSL.



When would an operating control tower not induce class D (or better)
airspace?


Surface areas require weather observations. I don't know if any still exist
but when airspace was reclassified in 1993 there were still a handful of
airports with operating control towers but without weather observing. These
airports had control towers in Class G airspace.

You may also encounter temporary control towers in Class E or G airspace,
such as the one at Fond du Lac during AirVenture.



When would a class D airspace not have a control tower? They
are usually correlated, but I seem to remember that they are not
necessarily correlated.


When some knucklehead operating in an official capacity but beyond his
abilities and knowledge thinks it should be that way. The only example I'm
currently aware of is at SEA.

El Toro MCAS used to have Class D airspace adjacent to the Class C airspace
that didn't even reach the surface.

Pearson Field in Vancouver, WA, had Class D airspace from the surface to the
overlying Portland Class C airspace. Pearson had no control tower and was
the only airport in the Class D surface area. It now has a Class E surface
area.

When would an operating control tower not induce class D (or better)
airspace?
Surface areas require weather observations.

Thanks. That was the missing link. (of course, some would say that =I=
am the missing link... we won't go there.

When would a class D airspace not have a control tower?
When some knucklehead...

Aha! Maybe the knucklehead is the missing link. So much for
"intellegent design".

The SVFR clearance includes the surface area by name; "Cleared out of
Smallville Class D surface area, maintain Special VFR conditions." Once you
exit the Class D airspace the SVFR clearance no longer applies.

Ok, so in this case I would not have been cleared above the D.

I presume that the only way to get SVFR clearance in an E is if that E
extends to the ground, and is part of a surface area?

Is it possible (albeit unlikely) to get SVFR up through a D into
overlying C?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. com...

I don't know what the point is in responding to any of your statements.

Then don't respond.



But in any case you were saying "that's not the same thing". If you are
being so pedantic that by "same" you mean "identical", then your statement
is worthless - nothing that happens at one airport is idential to what
happens at a different airport - they are different airports. But if you
take "same" to mean "similar enough", then we merely differ on how
"enough" it is. The two things were the reverse of each other but shared
the property of being out of normal synch for a moment.


They were not the same thing because one had Class D airspace and the other
did not. Apparently that is beyond your ability to understand.



It cannot.


Correct!



However, if the marginal conditions continue to exist above the D for some
distance into the overlying E, then one can get out of the airport by
flying SFFR through the D, and through however much of the E is necessary.
If SVFR is available in that E, within D's footprint, then it can be done.
If not, then it can't. Sometimes this makes a difference in being able to
get out VFR.


Okay. The same conditions exist in the cylinder of Class E airspace between
the Class D ceiling and 10,000 MSL that exist in the Class D itself. Let's
say the SVFR clearance applies to that airspace too. What are you gonna do
once you reach it? Unless the conditions outside of it are basic VFR or
better you can't leave that cylinder of airspace that overlies the Class D.

"Jose" wrote in message
. com...

I presume that the only way to get SVFR clearance in an E is if that E
extends to the ground, and is part of a surface area?


SVFR exists ONLY in a surface area.



Is it possible (albeit unlikely) to get SVFR up through a D into overlying
C?


An aircraft can be issued SVFR to climb to VFR conditions if the only
weather limitation is restricted visibility, but it would have to reach
basic VFR conditions while within the surface area.

"Climb to VFR within the Smallville surface area, maintain Special VFR
conditions until reaching VFR."

..Blueskies. wrote:
"Emily" wrote in message ...
: Jose wrote:
: (Ok, so I had a startlingly good conversation with our PMI today,
: which slightly rekindled my faith in the FAA....probably not deserved)
:
: Care to share?
:
: Jose
: Oh, nothing piloting related...we had a SUP show up on the doorstep last
: week and he's going to help us do everything we can to figure out where
: it came from and what to do with it. I just wasn't expecting that kind
: of support...I'm used to the FAA either blowing me off and jumping in
: and taking over. I've been fairly impressed by this particular FSDO.

Well, that SUP program is one of their pet projects, so I am sure you will get all kinds of help finding the source -
that helps to justify their existence.

Well, in this case, someone needs to find out what happened, and if it
takes the FAA to keep our suppliers in line, so be it. This one is just
not safe.

Stefan wrote:
Emily schrieb:

Maybe they are doing a last check of the runway alignement?

Or making sure they are on the right runway...

There are those who grasp irony and there are those who don't.

Stefan

I was fully aware, just wanted to see who else was..

Okay. The same conditions exist in the cylinder of Class E airspace between
the Class D ceiling and 10,000 MSL that exist in the Class D itself. Let's
say the SVFR clearance applies to that airspace too. What are you gonna do
once you reach it? Unless the conditions outside of it are basic VFR or
better you can't leave that cylinder of airspace that overlies the Class D.

But what if the those conditions exist only halfway up the cylinder? If
you could get SVFR in the entire cylinder, including the E, you climb in
the D to the E, and in the E to the top of the cloud layer to where VFR
conditions exist, go up another thousand feet, and exit.

If you could not get SVFR in the E, you could not do this.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Climb to VFR within the Smallville surface area, maintain Special VFR
conditions until reaching VFR."

If the Smallville class D underlies class E, would this clearance permit
me to clime above the D into the E under SVFR? There was no class D
limitation in this clearance.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. net...

If the Smallville class D underlies class E, would this clearance permit
me to clime above the D into the E under SVFR?


No.



There was no class D limitation in this clearance.


Yes there was, "Climb to VFR within the Smallville surface area."