more bitching about the IFR written - CDI left/right versus north/south/etc

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
C J Campbell wrote:
"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
...

A month or two ago there was a thread about CDI indicating north/south
vs. left/right in particular on front course and back course LOC.
I'm studying for the IFR written and not in a single place
does the FAA use north/south.


What in heck are you referring to? The CDI refers only to right or left
of
the course indicated by the OBS and the TO/FROM window. You have to know
how
to use the CDI when it appears to be reverse sensing.

The OBS has no meaning to a CDI when using a localizer.
It's left or right of the localizer beam where "left and right" is defined
as looking inward on the front course. It's only when the pilot's left
and
right is reversed (as they are looking inward on the back course) that
things
are "reversed."

That is all true.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:38:45 GMT, "Hilton"
wrote:

I'll bite. What is a p-t-d entry? Parallel, Teardrop, Direct??? So
it's
now one entry? Or are you saying you can go fly holds and enter any
which
way you want? If so, you'll end up doing one of these (or some version
thereof) anyway.


I'm saying exactly that. The only requirement is to stay within
holding airspace.

The FAA finally wised up a few years back, and removed the requirement
from the PTS. Nevertheless, it remains a part of the written

It also remains a requirement on most FAA approved part 141 syllabi, so the
entries have to be taught to competency whether they are part of the PTS or
not. The standard entries do guarantee that you will remain in the protected
holding airspace and are recommended in AIM, the FAA Instrument Flying
Handbook, and the FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook, all of which is where
the FAA draws its test questions from. The operations manuals for FAA
approved commercial IFR operators also often specify what holding pattern
entries the operator's pilots will use. Since these are the standard methods
and many students will be required by their employers to use them, there is
little point in teaching anything else.

If you want to do something else, of course, you are perfectly free to do
so.

C J Campbell wrote:
The operations manuals for FAA approved commercial IFR operators
also often specify what holding pattern entries the operator's
pilots will use. Since these are the standard methods and many
students will be required by their employers to use them, there is
little point in teaching anything else.

I don't see anything wrong with teaching or learning them, but I can
also see how it's much more important for a commercial pilot flying
high performance aircraft than for a spam can driver.

If you're holding at 210 kts (and maybe limited to less than standard
rate turns by your FD), you're going to eat up a lot of sky. The
correct entry may be the only thing keeping you from blowing out of
the protected area. This is much less likely to be an issue at 90
kts.

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:40:45 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:



And I've only been doing this for a few years

Precisely.

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:43:20 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
om...
C J Campbell wrote:
"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
...

A month or two ago there was a thread about CDI indicating north/south
vs. left/right in particular on front course and back course LOC.
I'm studying for the IFR written and not in a single place
does the FAA use north/south.


What in heck are you referring to? The CDI refers only to right or left
of
the course indicated by the OBS and the TO/FROM window. You have to know
how
to use the CDI when it appears to be reverse sensing.

The OBS has no meaning to a CDI when using a localizer.
It's left or right of the localizer beam where "left and right" is defined
as looking inward on the front course. It's only when the pilot's left
and
right is reversed (as they are looking inward on the back course) that
things
are "reversed."

That is all true.



Almost.

The OBS has much meaning to a CDI when using a localizer course, if
you just know how to interpret said meaning.

wrote in message
...

The OBS has no meaning to a CDI when using a localizer.
It's left or right of the localizer beam where "left and right" is
defined
as looking inward on the front course. It's only when the pilot's
left
and
right is reversed (as they are looking inward on the back course) that
things
are "reversed."

That is all true.



Almost.

The OBS has much meaning to a CDI when using a localizer course, if
you just know how to interpret said meaning.

It has no meaning to the CDI, which after all is an inanimate object. If you
are properly trained it should have some meaning for you.

wrote:

If the OBS is set to the course, you can immediately discern whether
you are north or south of an eastbound course, for example. You can
do this by looking at a properly set OBS ring, and at which way the
needle is leaning.

Setting the OBS during a localizer approach is a good mnemonic. I do that.
It's also a good habit.

But it doesn't really impact *interpretation* of the CDI's display (unless
one forgets the course marked by the localizer, in which case the OBS
setting saves having to look down at the plate).

Using your example, the OBS doesn't do anything but remind you that the
course indicated by the localizer is eastbound. Useful, true, but I'd not
consider that a part of the interpretation process. I make this
distinction because, unless I forget the course, I never need to look at
the OBS to discern the meaning of the CDI.

- Andrew

wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:40:45 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:



And I've only been doing this for a few years

Precisely.

I don't see your point. Are you suggesting that I'll eventually lose the
ease with which I see holds and their entries?

- Andrew

wrote:

The "one-entry" method makes the initial turn the shortest way to
outbound.

So if I'm to hold over a VOR on the 270 radial, and I'm flying a track of
080, I should turn left to intercept the 270 outbound after overflying the
VOR?

- Andrew

wrote in message
...

The OBS has much meaning to a CDI when using a localizer course, if
you just know how to interpret said meaning.

It has no meaning to the CDI, which after all is an inanimate object. If
you
are properly trained it should have some meaning for you.

When I use words, they mean exactly what I mean for them to mean,
nothing more and nothing less.

Very well, what does the OBS mean to the CDI on a localizer?