A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old June 28th 09, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

On Jun 27, 4:18*pm, "BT" wrote:
Does anyone know what the Fee is for the 10yr FCC certificate application
for a base station or mobile mount?


[snip]

Or handheld or *any* air-band radio used outside a registered domestic
aircraft the 10 year fee is

$215.00
$115.00 for non-profit

All that info and more is a click or two from the URL I gave before.

Sign up on the FCC web site and get an "FRN" (FCC Registraion Number)
so you can use the online ULS (Universal Licensing System) for online
licensing.

Again start at http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...craft_stations

While I like to complain about ULS it is better than snail mail.

Darryl
  #12  
Old June 28th 09, 02:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ContestID67[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

One of our members checked with the FCC on whether we need to license
our handhelds (used by the club for operations) as we don't have a
base station.

The working on the FCC web site says, "You are required to have a
separate Ground Station license to operate your radio on the ground."
It doesn't make a distinction between handheld or base station, only
that it is being operated on the ground (versus the air). There must
be a division of responsibility between the FAA and FCC on operating a
radio in the air versus on the ground.

Anyway, from our club's standpoint we need to renew our license and
are working on that. But from my personal standpoint, do I need a
license to use my handheld on the ground? How about a radio in a
chase vehicle? I suppose I am a much more difficult target to hit
than a fixed base operator.

My $0.02.

- John DeRosa
  #13  
Old June 28th 09, 02:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ContestID67[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

You can search for your license status at
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/LicA...rchLicense.jsp.
  #14  
Old June 28th 09, 02:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ContestID67[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

Sorry for the multiple posts. Just found this at;
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...round_stations.
Note that gliders are specifically mentioned.

"Aviation support stations are airborne and ground stations used for
pilot training, soaring (with gliders), or free ballooning."

Now, what does that mean?

- John

===============

About Ground Stations


The FCC regulates the Aviation Services in cooperation with the
Federal Aviation Administration. Wherever aviation services are
provided in US territory, both FAA and FCC requirements must be met by
anyone who uses aviation radio. The FCC authorizes different types of
aviation ground stations for air-to-ground operations. Flight safety
is the primary purpose of all Aviation Services.

Aeronautical and Fixed ServiceAeronautical advisory stations, also
called Unicom stations, are land stations used for advising pilots of
private aircraft about local airport conditions. They are not used to
control aircraft in flight.

Aeronautical multicom stations provide communications between private
aircraft and a ground facility for temporary, seasonal, or emergency
activities like crop dusting, livestock herding, forest firefighting,
aerial advertising, parachute jumping, etc. In some cases, multicom
stations may be authorized to serve as unicom stations.

Aeronautical enroute stations are used by aircraft owners or operators
for operational control and flight management of their aircraft. They
have access to these stations by cooperative arrangement, but any
pilot with a flight emergency may use these stations without prior
agreement.

Flight test stations are airborne and ground stations used only to
pass information or instructions concerning tests of aircraft or
airborne components.

Aviation support stations are airborne and ground stations used for
pilot training, soaring (with gliders), or free ballooning.

Airport control tower stationsprovide all necessary communications
between an airport control tower and all arriving and departing
aircraft. They are used to maintain an efficient flow of traffic for
aircraft taxiing, landing, and takeoff and for all vehicle movement on
the airfield. For vehicle movement on the airfield, airport control
tower stations communicate with aeronautical utility mobile stations

Automatic weather observation stations provide updated weather
broadcasts for a specific landing area.

Aviation Auxiliary GroupAeronautical search and rescue stations are
used for air-to-ground communications during actual or practice search
and rescue operations, or for search and rescue training.

Aeronautical utility mobile stations are installed in vehicles that
provide maintenance, fire and crash protection, freight handling, or
other group support normally under control tower direction at an
airport. They are used for both operational and emergency
communications.

  #15  
Old June 28th 09, 05:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
brianDG303[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 161
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz


OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
email) and there are three likely choices;

AA- Aviation Auxiliary
AC- Aircraft
AF- Aeronautical and Fixed

Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
Required.
AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
Game Over.

There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
to issue licenses.

Brian





  #16  
Old June 28th 09, 10:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

Is there any way we can get the SSA to get a single blanket FCC license to
cover all SSA members using handhelds during glider operations? This would
be a great additional member benefit!!!

Mike Schumann

"brianDG303" wrote in message
...

OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
email) and there are three likely choices;

AA- Aviation Auxiliary
AC- Aircraft
AF- Aeronautical and Fixed

Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
Required.
AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
Game Over.

There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
to issue licenses.

Brian







  #17  
Old June 29th 09, 01:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim Britton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:

OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
email) and there are three likely choices;

AA- Aviation Auxiliary
AC- Aircraft
AF- Aeronautical and Fixed

Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
Required.
AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
Game Over.

There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
to issue licenses.

Brian


I did a bit better than you.
I eventually got AA to work.
Got through the first few pages.
But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.

Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
handheld outside of an aircraft?

Jim
  #18  
Old June 29th 09, 03:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

On Jun 28, 5:30*pm, Jim Britton wrote:
At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:





OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
email) and there are three likely choices;


AA- Aviation Auxiliary
AC- Aircraft
AF- Aeronautical and Fixed


Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
Required.
AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
Game Over.


There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
to issue licenses.


Brian


I did a bit better than you.
I eventually got AA to work.
Got through the first few pages.
But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.

Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
handheld outside of an aircraft?

Jim


Hi Jim

I use ULS for my amateur radio license and a GMRS license (that has
currently lapsed and I don't use) I have no FCC aeronautical license -
as you say I don't have a need.

BTW you need an AF not AA subtype.

And to Answer John DerRosa's questions (again) yes you technically
need an "Aeronautical and Fixed" AF sub-type license for a handheld
(or any air band radio) if used outside of use in an aircraft. If I am
at the airport and transmitting a safety message etc. I'll be "N26DX
on the ground". The details of whether you need to be sitting in the
aircraft etc. I'll leave to you and the friendly FCC inspector. What
is clear but is if you have a mobile setup or handheld in a crew
vehicle or a base station at an FBO or club etc. you need a license
and I think that is entirely OK.

And Mike, no this is not somethign the SSA should pursue. I am sure
the FCC see the point as licensing and enforcing radio transmitters
and requiring a standard of behavior and a way to go after people that
transgress those rules and shut the down violators (by removing their
license and more if needed). With the FAA/FCC arrangement I believe
the FCC can go after your FAA licenses. With a ground crew and a radio
what do they do? Well they go after you first for not having an FCC
license. Do you want the SSA to charge every member $200 or so for a
ten year license and have to deal with FCC paperwork? The regulations
controlling this are laws, the FCC can't just give way licenses to
individuals though large organizations. And remember my warning
earlier about not stirring up things you do not know the outcome from.


Darryl

  #19  
Old June 29th 09, 04:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

Back in 1996, the FCC issued an NPRM to address the issue of licensing
handheld radios for ground personal to communicate with aircraft (see
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/.../fcc96407.txt). The proposal was
to permit an unlimited number of handhelds to be included in a single
license to minimize the administrative burden on the FCC and the public.

I don't know if this was adopted or not. If it was, it should be possible
for a club to get a single 10 year license for $115 (assuming the club is a
non-profit), that would cover all of its members at that location. The
question then becomes, can this license cover radios being used on a
retrieve away from the airport? How about temporary remote operations at
another airport?

I suspect that 95% of soaring clubs, glider pilots and/or retrieve crews
that use handhelds on the ground are currently not licensed, and have no
idea that licensing is required. Given what happened to the TSA, this is an
issue that can't be swept under the carpet.

I am willing to bet that the FCC would be very willing to come up with a
reasonable solution to handheld aviation radio licensing that would limit
operations to legitimate glider related uses, without subjecting the FCC and
the glider community to the cost and administrative burden associated with
issuing a separate license to every single handheld radio.

Working out an arrangement between the FCC and the SSA to issue a single
license to the SSA for all SSA members would be a relatively simple and
straightforward way to solve this problem. Under the current fee schedule
this would cost the SSA $115 once every 10 years.

One way or the other, this issue needs to be addressed. Since this is
affects the entire glider community, the SSA should be involved in coming up
with a solution, regardless of whether or not it becomes the holder of the
FCC license or comes up with some other solution.

Mike Schumann

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
On Jun 28, 5:30 pm, Jim Britton wrote:
At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:





OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
email) and there are three likely choices;


AA- Aviation Auxiliary
AC- Aircraft
AF- Aeronautical and Fixed


Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
Required.
AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
Game Over.


There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
to issue licenses.


Brian


I did a bit better than you.
I eventually got AA to work.
Got through the first few pages.
But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.

Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
handheld outside of an aircraft?

Jim


Hi Jim

I use ULS for my amateur radio license and a GMRS license (that has
currently lapsed and I don't use) I have no FCC aeronautical license -
as you say I don't have a need.

BTW you need an AF not AA subtype.

And to Answer John DerRosa's questions (again) yes you technically
need an "Aeronautical and Fixed" AF sub-type license for a handheld
(or any air band radio) if used outside of use in an aircraft. If I am
at the airport and transmitting a safety message etc. I'll be "N26DX
on the ground". The details of whether you need to be sitting in the
aircraft etc. I'll leave to you and the friendly FCC inspector. What
is clear but is if you have a mobile setup or handheld in a crew
vehicle or a base station at an FBO or club etc. you need a license
and I think that is entirely OK.

And Mike, no this is not somethign the SSA should pursue. I am sure
the FCC see the point as licensing and enforcing radio transmitters
and requiring a standard of behavior and a way to go after people that
transgress those rules and shut the down violators (by removing their
license and more if needed). With the FAA/FCC arrangement I believe
the FCC can go after your FAA licenses. With a ground crew and a radio
what do they do? Well they go after you first for not having an FCC
license. Do you want the SSA to charge every member $200 or so for a
ten year license and have to deal with FCC paperwork? The regulations
controlling this are laws, the FCC can't just give way licenses to
individuals though large organizations. And remember my warning
earlier about not stirring up things you do not know the outcome from.


Darryl


  #20  
Old June 29th 09, 04:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Wayne Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 905
Default Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

Has anyone contacted a friend who is part of the "Balloon Community" to see how they handle this situation? It seems that their need for a resolution would be greater then ours. Maybe they have worked out something with the FCC that we could emulate.


"Mike Schumann" wrote in message ...
Back in 1996, the FCC issued an NPRM to address the issue of licensing
handheld radios for ground personal to communicate with aircraft (see
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/.../fcc96407.txt). The proposal was
to permit an unlimited number of handhelds to be included in a single
license to minimize the administrative burden on the FCC and the public.

I don't know if this was adopted or not. If it was, it should be possible
for a club to get a single 10 year license for $115 (assuming the club is a
non-profit), that would cover all of its members at that location. The
question then becomes, can this license cover radios being used on a
retrieve away from the airport? How about temporary remote operations at
another airport?

I suspect that 95% of soaring clubs, glider pilots and/or retrieve crews
that use handhelds on the ground are currently not licensed, and have no
idea that licensing is required. Given what happened to the TSA, this is an
issue that can't be swept under the carpet.

I am willing to bet that the FCC would be very willing to come up with a
reasonable solution to handheld aviation radio licensing that would limit
operations to legitimate glider related uses, without subjecting the FCC and
the glider community to the cost and administrative burden associated with
issuing a separate license to every single handheld radio.

Working out an arrangement between the FCC and the SSA to issue a single
license to the SSA for all SSA members would be a relatively simple and
straightforward way to solve this problem. Under the current fee schedule
this would cost the SSA $115 once every 10 years.

One way or the other, this issue needs to be addressed. Since this is
affects the entire glider community, the SSA should be involved in coming up
with a solution, regardless of whether or not it becomes the holder of the
FCC license or comes up with some other solution.

Mike Schumann

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
On Jun 28, 5:30 pm, Jim Britton wrote:
At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:





OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
email) and there are three likely choices;


AA- Aviation Auxiliary
AC- Aircraft
AF- Aeronautical and Fixed


Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
Required.
AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
Game Over.


There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
to issue licenses.


Brian


I did a bit better than you.
I eventually got AA to work.
Got through the first few pages.
But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.

Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
handheld outside of an aircraft?

Jim


Hi Jim

I use ULS for my amateur radio license and a GMRS license (that has
currently lapsed and I don't use) I have no FCC aeronautical license -
as you say I don't have a need.

BTW you need an AF not AA subtype.

And to Answer John DerRosa's questions (again) yes you technically
need an "Aeronautical and Fixed" AF sub-type license for a handheld
(or any air band radio) if used outside of use in an aircraft. If I am
at the airport and transmitting a safety message etc. I'll be "N26DX
on the ground". The details of whether you need to be sitting in the
aircraft etc. I'll leave to you and the friendly FCC inspector. What
is clear but is if you have a mobile setup or handheld in a crew
vehicle or a base station at an FBO or club etc. you need a license
and I think that is entirely OK.

And Mike, no this is not somethign the SSA should pursue. I am sure
the FCC see the point as licensing and enforcing radio transmitters
and requiring a standard of behavior and a way to go after people that
transgress those rules and shut the down violators (by removing their
license and more if needed). With the FAA/FCC arrangement I believe
the FCC can go after your FAA licenses. With a ground crew and a radio
what do they do? Well they go after you first for not having an FCC
license. Do you want the SSA to charge every member $200 or so for a
ten year license and have to deal with FCC paperwork? The regulations
controlling this are laws, the FCC can't just give way licenses to
individuals though large organizations. And remember my warning
earlier about not stirring up things you do not know the outcome from.


Darryl


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Scaled Composites Space Tourism Firm Fined Over Deaths Larry Dighera Piloting 16 February 6th 08 07:01 PM
Lockheed Fined $3 million Jay Honeck Piloting 11 June 8th 07 07:48 PM
Only at a gliderport SAM 303a Soaring 5 August 18th 06 02:53 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.