Belly Cleaning...?

Hjarrett,

I'm not saying they are true or not but I
have NEVER had anyone give definitive proof that it actually happens.


Well, the guys at Aviation Consumer got this from the manufacturer (I
hope it's ok to quote this):

"Simple Green is a household cleaner that’s mildly alkaline. Its
manufacturer, Sunshine Makers, Inc., says “the aqueous-base and
alkalinity of Simple Green...can accelerate the corrosion process.
Therefore, contact times of...Simple Green...with unprotected or
unpainted aluminum surfaces should be kept as brief as the job will
allow...never for more than 10 minutes. Large cleaning jobs should be
conducted in smaller-area stages to achieve lower contact time.”

Sunshine Makers notes that Simple Green doesn’t have Mil-Spec approval
and Navy tests done in 1993 revealed that Simple Green failed sandwich
corrosion and long-term immersion-corrosion tests on aluminum. "

They conclude it wouldn't be their first choice and they would at least
only use it on painted surfaces and rinse very thoroughly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

THAT is the kind of information we need! If this is quoted from the
manufacturer then I read it as saying it "can accelerate the corrosion "
(which is true of almost ALL household cleaners since most cleaners are
"mildly alkaline"). I wouldn't worry a lot about the Navy tests and the
lack of a Mil-Spec approval (I was an engineer for the Navy for 25+ years on
the A-6 program and DID these kinds of tests). The sandwich corrosion and
long-term immersion-corrosion tests would be failed by almost ANY common
cleaning solution. The sandwich test involves trapping the cleaner between
two sheets of bare aluminum and exposure to different saline environments.
Almost EVERYTHING fails at some level including clean, filtered de-ionized
water. I would say NO cleaner should be left on a surface for ten minutes
(or even be allowed to dry there at all). If nothing else it is a BEAR to
get the film off.
For myself, I plan to continue using Lemon Pledge (ducking for cover) on my
windshield and will use the Simple Green on my fabric surfaces against
really tough soil (like bug splats on leading edges and belly grime) with a
GOOD rinse afterwards. I'll continue avoiding the aluminum skins,
especially where two or more layers are riveted together, with ALL cleaners.
By the way, the Lemon Pledge does a GREAT job taking bugs off leading edges
and works REALLY well on my wood prop.
Hank (Awaiting the "incoming rounds" on Pledge- no "Mil-Spec approval" there
either) J


"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Hjarrett,

I'm not saying they are true or not but I
have NEVER had anyone give definitive proof that it actually happens.


Well, the guys at Aviation Consumer got this from the manufacturer (I
hope it's ok to quote this):

"Simple Green is a household cleaner that's mildly alkaline. Its
manufacturer, Sunshine Makers, Inc., says "the aqueous-base and
alkalinity of Simple Green...can accelerate the corrosion process.
Therefore, contact times of...Simple Green...with unprotected or
unpainted aluminum surfaces should be kept as brief as the job will
allow...never for more than 10 minutes. Large cleaning jobs should be
conducted in smaller-area stages to achieve lower contact time."

Sunshine Makers notes that Simple Green doesn't have Mil-Spec approval
and Navy tests done in 1993 revealed that Simple Green failed sandwich
corrosion and long-term immersion-corrosion tests on aluminum. "

They conclude it wouldn't be their first choice and they would at least
only use it on painted surfaces and rinse very thoroughly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)





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"hjarrett" wrote in message
...
THAT is the kind of information we need! If this is quoted from the
manufacturer then I read it as saying it "can accelerate the corrosion "
(which is true of almost ALL household cleaners since most cleaners are
"mildly alkaline"). I wouldn't worry a lot about the Navy tests and the
lack of a Mil-Spec approval (I was an engineer for the Navy for 25+ years
on
the A-6 program and DID these kinds of tests). The sandwich corrosion and
long-term immersion-corrosion tests would be failed by almost ANY common
cleaning solution. The sandwich test involves trapping the cleaner
between
two sheets of bare aluminum and exposure to different saline environments.
Almost EVERYTHING fails at some level including clean, filtered de-ionized
water. I would say NO cleaner should be left on a surface for ten minutes
(or even be allowed to dry there at all). If nothing else it is a BEAR to
get the film off.
For myself, I plan to continue using Lemon Pledge (ducking for cover) on
my
windshield and will use the Simple Green on my fabric surfaces against
really tough soil (like bug splats on leading edges and belly grime) with
a
GOOD rinse afterwards. I'll continue avoiding the aluminum skins,
especially where two or more layers are riveted together, with ALL
cleaners.
By the way, the Lemon Pledge does a GREAT job taking bugs off leading
edges
and works REALLY well on my wood prop.
Hank (Awaiting the "incoming rounds" on Pledge- no "Mil-Spec approval"
there
either) J

Exactly! If used correctly simple green is no worse than any other cleaner
if "used correctly." 409 is much worse than Simple Green but has not been
involved in an aviation myth so it must be OK. Pollutants and soaps carried
into seams can be extremely corrosive. A plane stored inside properly
cleaned with Simple Green is much less likely to suffer from corrosion than
a plane stored outside in a seaside, industrial or high pollutant area.
Anybody that washes their plane by flooding it with water is asking for
trouble.

I think you will find most everybody agrees with your Lemon Pledge comments.

hjarrett wrote:

I have been hearing the comments about Simple Green for years and that it
will etch or corrode Aluminum. I'm not saying they are true or not but I
have NEVER had anyone give definitive proof that it actually happens.

The U.S. military has published such a statement. Somebody put a link to it here a
year or two back.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

From the Naval Safety Center's website:

Dear Editor:

The cleaning liquid, Simple Green, should not be used to clean
aluminum equipment or parts because it is highly corrosive.

According to an article at avweb, a 3.5 gram aluminum alloy sample was
immersed into a container of Simple Green. After one week, the sample
was 295 milligrams lighter. The article further states that the Air
Force issued a statement not to use Simple Green on Air Force
equipment containing aluminum.

Thought you Navy folks would like to have this information.

MSgt. Larry Stulz
Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio

We appreciate your information about Simple Green. Lt. David Mims,
head of the Occupational and Environmental Health Division here at the
Safety Center, researched the Simple Green situation. He found that
the Naval Air Warfare Center (NavAir) disapproved of the use of Simple
Green for naval aviation in 1993. They have a documented incident of
crazing of an F-18 canopy following the unauthorized use of Simple
Green. According to an official at NAVAIR, they have tested the
product at least three times since 1989. Simple Green fails sandwich
corrosion and total immersion-corrosion tests for aluminum. That
official also said that NAVAIR recommended that commands remove Simple
Green from their spaces. It's just too easy for someone who's told to
clean something to grab a bottle of Simple Green off the shelf and use
it on an airplane or equipment made of aluminum.-Ed.



Like I said, you've been warned.

No Spam

I left NAVAIR in 1997 and at that time the only thing I had ever seen was
that it wasn't to be used because it wasn't Mil Spec. I kind of discount
the "immersion test" for it's effects in our situation. Almost ANY cleaner
will tear up bare aluminum if you submerge it and leave it there. There are
strict requirements for what you can use on transparencies, and again LOTS
of chemicals will craze them. Ever seen what AvGas does to Polycarbonate?
I take the warning seriously and like I said, I won't use it where it can
get between layers of aluminum but it sure works good on fabric leading edge
bugs and bellies.
Hank J

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
om...
From the Naval Safety Center's website:

Dear Editor:

The cleaning liquid, Simple Green, should not be used to clean
aluminum equipment or parts because it is highly corrosive.

According to an article at avweb, a 3.5 gram aluminum alloy sample was
immersed into a container of Simple Green. After one week, the sample
was 295 milligrams lighter. The article further states that the Air
Force issued a statement not to use Simple Green on Air Force
equipment containing aluminum.

Thought you Navy folks would like to have this information.

MSgt. Larry Stulz
Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio

We appreciate your information about Simple Green. Lt. David Mims,
head of the Occupational and Environmental Health Division here at the
Safety Center, researched the Simple Green situation. He found that
the Naval Air Warfare Center (NavAir) disapproved of the use of Simple
Green for naval aviation in 1993. They have a documented incident of
crazing of an F-18 canopy following the unauthorized use of Simple
Green. According to an official at NAVAIR, they have tested the
product at least three times since 1989. Simple Green fails sandwich
corrosion and total immersion-corrosion tests for aluminum. That
official also said that NAVAIR recommended that commands remove Simple
Green from their spaces. It's just too easy for someone who's told to
clean something to grab a bottle of Simple Green off the shelf and use
it on an airplane or equipment made of aluminum.-Ed.



Like I said, you've been warned.

No Spam




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Thanks for the help Dave, Don't these
people ever READ before the reply?
Maybe they know EVERYTING already
so they don't have to understand it only
rebut it. Takes all kinds. Thanks again.
I thought I was the only one wondering.

Bill OParowski
-2million shares of simple green. LOL

OK, I have read your message several times and I'm not sure who you think
didn't read before replying. A couple of us have direct testing experience
in this area (I admit mine is a few years dated) and we are all just trying
to get enough information to make an informed decision on something that has
been batted back and forth in aviation circles with very little
substantiation. The Navy says don't use it. I got out of the Navy 30 years
ago. They are ULTRA conservative and I don't take orders from them any more
(WROTE ultra conservative maintenance orders for them for over 25 years
though, which is how I know they are ultra conservative).
Not flaming here, just missed who you are talking about.
Hank J


"OSKI 3" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the help Dave, Don't these
people ever READ before the reply?
Maybe they know EVERYTING already
so they don't have to understand it only
rebut it. Takes all kinds. Thanks again.
I thought I was the only one wondering.

Bill OParowski
-2million shares of simple green. LOL




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"hjarrett" wrote in message
...
OK, I have read your message several times and I'm not sure who you think
didn't read before replying. A couple of us have direct testing
experience
in this area (I admit mine is a few years dated) and we are all just
trying
to get enough information to make an informed decision on something that
has
been batted back and forth in aviation circles with very little
substantiation. The Navy says don't use it. I got out of the Navy 30
years
ago. They are ULTRA conservative and I don't take orders from them any
more
(WROTE ultra conservative maintenance orders for them for over 25 years
though, which is how I know they are ultra conservative).
Not flaming here, just missed who you are talking about.
Hank J

I think he is saying the same thing as you.



"OSKI 3" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the help Dave, Don't these
people ever READ before the reply?
Maybe they know EVERYTING already
so they don't have to understand it only
rebut it. Takes all kinds. Thanks again.
I thought I was the only one wondering.

Bill OParowski
-2million shares of simple green. LOL




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