NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

The UK ATC authority, NATS, has implemented a trial with AOPA UK to test a low cost ADS-B out capability. Basically, they are allowing non-certified GPS to interface with the Mode S 1090ES which gives ADS-B out.

Some people have (illegally) tested this with their Trig and other transponders in the U.S and other places:

This is as much as I know...

http://www.nats.aero/news/nats-enabl...-ga-community/

Hope this pans out... and FAA is listening.

Walt Rogers WX

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 6:31:04 PM UTC-5, WaltWX wrote:
The UK ATC authority, NATS, has implemented a trial with AOPA UK to test a low cost ADS-B out capability. Basically, they are allowing non-certified GPS to interface with the Mode S 1090ES which gives ADS-B out.

Some people have (illegally) tested this with their Trig and other transponders in the U.S and other places:

This is as much as I know...

http://www.nats.aero/news/nats-enabl...-ga-community/

Hope this pans out... and FAA is listening.

Walt Rogers WX

Finally someone with brains made a decision that can benefit GA. I don't understand why we would not do this in US say below 10,000 and outside class C or B. Makes sense, but it is unlikely our bureaucrats will ever take notice. They are busy writing more rules. They are busy preventing rather than enabling.

Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS):

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...5?OpenDocument

Marc

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 5:47:58 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS):

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...5?OpenDocument

Marc

Marc beat me to the same post.

Now we will need to see if any manufactures will actually be able to justify doing the work needed to ship a TSO-C199 system. The negative view of this yet more ADS-B fragmentation for a small USA market. But the GPS direction in TSO-C199 is a great improvement... it is an opportunity for a manufacture to do qualifications needed to ship a TSO-C199 based system that could use a much simpler GPS that requiring a full TSO IFR GPS source as currently required. But that system would then still *not* meet the 2020 carriage mandate requirement for ADS-B Out (which gliders are exempt from anyhow) -- so it does not help GA in the USA in any way--although if stuff worked really well there it might help put pressure on changing other requirements.

TSO-C199 devices are a reduced feature Mode-S (and optionally 1090ES Out) based traffic saftey beacon system hopefully suitable for gliders, balloons and maybe UAVs inter-operating with GA and above aircraft equipped with PCAS/TCAD/TCAS/ADS-B In. And to be clear TSO-C199 is not and never will be an invitation for aircraft owners to connect COTS (common off the shelf) GPS systems to an ADS-B Out transmitter. It is really important that TSO-C199 is based on transponder technology, that makes any TSO-C199 based system, if it is developed, compatible with TCAS, ... remember the ASG-29 and (TCAS equipped) Hawker 800 midair out of Minden a few years ago, TSO-C199 is a direct response from the FAA to the NTSB findings in that accident.

In Europe, Garrecht sells an ADS-B receiver that can also provide Classic
Flarm GPS data to a Mode S transponder for 680 Euros.

http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/TRX...eceiver,i4.htm

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

The Europeans are waaaaay ahead on this.

If you peruse the Trig TT-2x Transponder Installation manual, you will
find configuration parameters for stuff such as wingspan, fuselage length,
location on airframe etc.

It's all great for ensuring wingtips don't snag some other airframe on
adjacent taxiways and aprons at major airports. 3m accuracy or better gets
critical in this case.

Once airborne 50m accuracy from the little guys would be just fine for the
heavy stuff that doesn't want to come within half a mile of any of us.

It's a real surprise to see the FAA's head firmly stuck in the sand while
the Europeans are producing solutions that will work for GA.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 8:00:10 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:
In Europe, Garrecht sells an ADS-B receiver that can also provide Classic
Flarm GPS data to a Mode S transponder for 680 Euros.

http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/TRX...eceiver,i4.htm

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

The Europeans are waaaaay ahead on this.

If you peruse the Trig TT-2x Transponder Installation manual, you will
find configuration parameters for stuff such as wingspan, fuselage length,
location on airframe etc.

It's all great for ensuring wingtips don't snag some other airframe on
adjacent taxiways and aprons at major airports. 3m accuracy or better gets
critical in this case.

Once airborne 50m accuracy from the little guys would be just fine for the
heavy stuff that doesn't want to come within half a mile of any of us.

It's a real surprise to see the FAA's head firmly stuck in the sand while
the Europeans are producing solutions that will work for GA.

I think I've got pretty good grasp on the technology here and I'm having trouble following what you are talking about.

The exact same capability as in the TRX 1090 is already included in the PowerFLARM (with 1090ES receiver).

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

This sentence makes no technical sense, maybe you mistyped something. Filtering out non-GPS data from the PowerFLARM? For what? If all you want is a GPS output as good as PowerFLARM or simmilar devices you can do that for a pretty low component cost. Getting that COTS GPS signal is not the issue, the issue is whether you can use that signal to transmit a ADS-B signal. You cannot do so in the USA in a certified aircraft. And any aircraft you did it in would not meet the 2020 ADS-B Out carriage mandate.

Europe is ahead of the USA? I'd rather look at it as so far Europe has not done some of the particularly stupid things the FAA has done like making ADS-B dual-link, but in other ways Europe is further behind the USA, e.g. there is no European mandate for ADS-B adoption in light/GA aircraft and I hope when it eventually happens it is a lot more sensible than the roll out in the USA.

I'm not sure where 50m accuracy number comes from, but the FAA would tell you their concerns about positional accuracy of a non TSO GPS has worse case concerns greater than this. Its a much more complex discussion, but yes there is a place in this space for a non TSO/IFR GPS receiver, and that is directly acknowledged by TSO-C199, so I'd say the FAA's head is not entirely stuck in the ground, they've looked at this exactly, worked with vendors experienced with COTS GPS technology and this new TSO is the result.

All this ADS-B stuff is largely futureware, not something most pilots should get over-excited about, if you fly gliders in the USA and are worried about fast jets and airliners (and GA aircraft) install a transponder, worried about gliders install a PowerFLARM.

Good points, Andrzej. I would only ask that the altitude be raised to
18,000' (minus 1, of course). Ten thousand feet can get a bit nerve
wracking in the high western desert.


On 1/30/2015 5:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 6:31:04 PM UTC-5, WaltWX wrote:
The UK ATC authority, NATS, has implemented a trial with AOPA UK to test a low cost ADS-B out capability. Basically, they are allowing non-certified GPS to interface with the Mode S 1090ES which gives ADS-B out.

Some people have (illegally) tested this with their Trig and other transponders in the U.S and other places:

This is as much as I know...

http://www.nats.aero/news/nats-enabl...-ga-community/

Hope this pans out... and FAA is listening.

Walt Rogers WX
Finally someone with brains made a decision that can benefit GA. I don't understand why we would not do this in US say below 10,000 and outside class C or B. Makes sense, but it is unlikely our bureaucrats will ever take notice. They are busy writing more rules. They are busy preventing rather than enabling.

--
Dan Marotta

The Europeans can use ADS-B Out today in gliders. There may be elements
similar to FAA TSO-C199 which I just heard about.

I still question why WAAS GPS is/will be the price of admission to
controlled airspace at least in VFR. Yes on a Cat III ILS, WAAS is
warranted.

http://www.glidertracking.com/connecting-ads-b/

"René de Dreu from the Glider Pilot Shop has put together a document which
examines possible ADS-B connections between all Mode-S transponders and LX
flight computers / equipment. "

Unfortunately dead link for time being:

http://www.gliderpilotshop.nl/winkel...roducts_id=490

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:00:07 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:
The Europeans can use ADS-B Out today in gliders. There may be elements
similar to FAA TSO-C199 which I just heard about.

I still question why WAAS GPS is/will be the price of admission to
controlled airspace at least in VFR. Yes on a Cat III ILS, WAAS is
warranted.

http://www.glidertracking.com/connecting-ads-b/

"René de Dreu from the Glider Pilot Shop has put together a document which
examines possible ADS-B connections between all Mode-S transponders and LX
flight computers / equipment. "

Unfortunately dead link for time being:

http://www.gliderpilotshop.nl/winkel...roducts_id=490

Right, but it's kind of the reason that the Europeans can use 1090ES Out in gliders today is there are no applicable ADS-B services they interface to (including ATC) and no regulations beyond the most basic transponder/1090ES out requirements they have to meet. In a way it is not too different than the non-certified gliders in the USA, those owners can install any GPS source with the same 1090ES capable transponders.... but in the USA that has limited use as it is not enough to get the FAA ADS-B ground stations to want to send you ADS-R and TIS-B services and you likely won't even show up on traffic displays of aircraft with certified ADS-B In systems. In Europe where there are ADS-B Out requirements/standards for high-performance aircraft which require Certified IFR GPS sources. So just kind of a worse case paranoid warning: what Europe exactly will do in future is not guaranteed. If say they were to mandate ADS-B Out for lower performance aircraft than the current ADS-B Out mandate for high-performance (which is just rolling out) then who knows what might be required as a GPS source in those aircraft. But yes, damn it, things like testing/encouraging current COTS GPS use in the UK is great.

The issue that the FAA would argue with requiring a TSO/IFR/WAAS GPS source is not ultra-precision as it is with GPS reliability and failure detection.. I am just saying what they would argue :-)

BTW European agencies should be well aware of the stuff behind TSO-C199. Actually that TSO has some European roots back to low power Mode-S transponders... which in the past tied in with some concern about UK airspace restrictions/mandatory Transponder (or low-powered Transponder) carriage. So the other warning here is be careful what you wish/want to encourage without watching out for what might end up encouraging/enabling excessive mandatory use/restrictions.

And again the technical part of actually connecting together this stuff is not the problem, its actually pretty simple. And you can do that today in an experimental glider in the USA. You must be careful and properly set up the ADS-B out to report it is not using an IFR/TSO GPS source, and as a result it has limited use, you won't receive those services you might expect and it does not allow flight in airspace that would require a 2020 Mandate compliant ADS-B out system (gliders have exemptions for some airspace, but a non-compliant install won't get you into the other airspace). But geeks with experimental gliders may still want to do this (and a few have).

I'm not defending the FAA, but they had huge issues with ADS-B being everything to everybody and ADS-B is a key part of the ambitious and underfunded NEXGEN project. But the highly complex dual-link ADS-B approach in the USA is a mess and was a very bad idea for many reasons. Not allowing a COTS GPS for VFR traffic (at least outside certain airspace) was also a bad idea. TSO-C199 is interesting, I take it overall as a good sign, but it is unclear at least to me where it will end up and what products will actually come from it. It could also hopefully be a model for future broader changes to allow more use of non-TSO GPS for general ADS-B Out. And I still have some paranoid reservations where TSO-C199 could lead long term as mentioned above. Europeans pushing ahead with COTS GPS trials/encouraging use is a great sign as well, but again, does not mean they won't end up in future requiring higher-spec ADS-B Out installs in GA and gliders etc. (but we all hope they do not, and so far in what they actually have and have not done with ADS-B shows a lot more modest/overall rational/pragmatic thought than in the USA).

This ADS-B mess is still mostly futureware(*) for glider pilots in the USA, we just don't know exactly where this will end up, whether we'll ever see say TSO-C199 devices, whether ADS-B Out GPS requirements will be relaxed, etc. And Transponders and/or PowerFLARM are very useful, pretty well understood and realtively easy to deploy traffic awareness and collision avoidance assistance actually available and usable today. And since ADS-B Out is not even mandatory for gliders in 2020 it's just not worth most glider pilots worrying about.

(*) the part that of ADS-B that is not futureware for USA glider pilots is of course that the PowerFLARM with 1090ES In capability can "see" aircraft nearby that are transmitting 1090ES Out.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 8:15:49 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:00:07 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:
The Europeans can use ADS-B Out today in gliders. There may be elements
similar to FAA TSO-C199 which I just heard about.

I still question why WAAS GPS is/will be the price of admission to
controlled airspace at least in VFR. Yes on a Cat III ILS, WAAS is
warranted.

http://www.glidertracking.com/connecting-ads-b/

"René de Dreu from the Glider Pilot Shop has put together a document which
examines possible ADS-B connections between all Mode-S transponders and LX
flight computers / equipment. "

Unfortunately dead link for time being:

http://www.gliderpilotshop.nl/winkel...roducts_id=490

Right, but it's kind of the reason that the Europeans can use 1090ES Out in gliders today is there are no applicable ADS-B services they interface to (including ATC) and no regulations beyond the most basic transponder/1090ES out requirements they have to meet. In a way it is not too different than the non-certified gliders in the USA, those owners can install any GPS source with the same 1090ES capable transponders.... but in the USA that has limited use as it is not enough to get the FAA ADS-B ground stations to want to send you ADS-R and TIS-B services and you likely won't even show up on traffic displays of aircraft with certified ADS-B In systems. In Europe where there are ADS-B Out requirements/standards for high-performance aircraft which require Certified IFR GPS sources. So just kind of a worse case paranoid warning: what Europe exactly will do in future is not guaranteed. If say they were to mandate ADS-B Out for lower performance aircraft than the current ADS-B Out mandate for high-performance (which is just rolling out) then who knows what might be required as a GPS source in those aircraft. But yes, damn it, things like testing/encouraging current COTS GPS use in the UK is great.

The issue that the FAA would argue with requiring a TSO/IFR/WAAS GPS source is not ultra-precision as it is with GPS reliability and failure detection. I am just saying what they would argue :-)

BTW European agencies should be well aware of the stuff behind TSO-C199. Actually that TSO has some European roots back to low power Mode-S transponders... which in the past tied in with some concern about UK airspace restrictions/mandatory Transponder (or low-powered Transponder) carriage. So the other warning here is be careful what you wish/want to encourage without watching out for what might end up encouraging/enabling excessive mandatory use/restrictions.

And again the technical part of actually connecting together this stuff is not the problem, its actually pretty simple. And you can do that today in an experimental glider in the USA. You must be careful and properly set up the ADS-B out to report it is not using an IFR/TSO GPS source, and as a result it has limited use, you won't receive those services you might expect and it does not allow flight in airspace that would require a 2020 Mandate compliant ADS-B out system (gliders have exemptions for some airspace, but a non-compliant install won't get you into the other airspace). But geeks with experimental gliders may still want to do this (and a few have).

I'm not defending the FAA, but they had huge issues with ADS-B being everything to everybody and ADS-B is a key part of the ambitious and underfunded NEXGEN project. But the highly complex dual-link ADS-B approach in the USA is a mess and was a very bad idea for many reasons. Not allowing a COTS GPS for VFR traffic (at least outside certain airspace) was also a bad idea. TSO-C199 is interesting, I take it overall as a good sign, but it is unclear at least to me where it will end up and what products will actually come from it. It could also hopefully be a model for future broader changes to allow more use of non-TSO GPS for general ADS-B Out. And I still have some paranoid reservations where TSO-C199 could lead long term as mentioned above. Europeans pushing ahead with COTS GPS trials/encouraging use is a great sign as well, but again, does not mean they won't end up in future requiring higher-spec ADS-B Out installs in GA and gliders etc. (but we all hope they do not, and so far in what they actually have and have not done with ADS-B shows a lot more modest/overall rational/pragmatic thought than in the USA).

This ADS-B mess is still mostly futureware(*) for glider pilots in the USA, we just don't know exactly where this will end up, whether we'll ever see say TSO-C199 devices, whether ADS-B Out GPS requirements will be relaxed, etc. And Transponders and/or PowerFLARM are very useful, pretty well understood and realtively easy to deploy traffic awareness and collision avoidance assistance actually available and usable today. And since ADS-B Out is not even mandatory for gliders in 2020 it's just not worth most glider pilots worrying about.

(*) the part that of ADS-B that is not futureware for USA glider pilots is of course that the PowerFLARM with 1090ES In capability can "see" aircraft nearby that are transmitting 1090ES Out.

Non-certified aircraft that transmit ADS-B OUT signals using non-TSO'd GPS sources do apparently trigger TIS-B transmissions from ADS-B ground stations, according to the people I have talked to at Dynon and pilots who have Dynon systems installed in their aircraft. The Dynon system uses a proprietary version of the Trig 21 transponder and does transmit a 1090ES ADS-B out signal. The pilots I have talked to who have this system installed in their aircraft (RV-8 and Phoenix Motorgliders), consistently see all of the transponder equipped aircraft in their vicinity as a result of this capability.. The guys I have talked to say this it is a real eye opener on how much traffic is there that they would otherwise never see visually.