Badges ? ... We don't need no stinkin' badges

Hehe, if there is no datum change from the GPS (like in case of most
of the mouse type GPS) the final igc file will be the same as if it were
from an approved Garmin. This is what I said. Yes, it's against the
current rules, but who cares. Let's have their fun with the valid igc file

/jancsika


Andrew Warbrick wrote:
Don't be misleading.

If someone tries to claim a badge using an EW and a
'mouse type GPS' it will be rejected. The IGC approval
of the EW barographs requires the use of a GPS off
an approved list. The approved list GPS's output a
proprietary NMEA sentence for selected map datum which
is recorded by the logger to stop people displacing
turnpoints by changing map datum in flight.

I'm not saying this is the way it should be, there
is an argument for COTS loggers, but this is the way
it is, you can't claim a badge with an EW and just
any old GPS.

At 08:54 16 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:

ttaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:


I have old cameras you can have if you want them and
I have an EW-D
logger you can barrow if you would like to try some
badge flights. All
you need is a Garmin GPS to feed a signal to it.

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc
file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year.
Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing
has changed so
far

/Janos

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Cameras and mechanical barographs are quite suitable for badge flights.
...

When I started flying XC and trying for my silver badge, I read the
rules for camera/baro, made 1 attempt, then decided that all of the
rigamarole was not worth it and bought a Colibri. Then all I had to do
was declare the flight and fly it !

Todd
3S

I realise you are just trying to recruit disgruntled
pilots to the COTS cause. They will be disgruntled
because their NAC will have rejected their claim.

I'll say it again, clearer this time and using shorter
words. The EW will log with any GPS but it will only
make an IGC file valid for a badge claim with one of
the approved GPS's, your NAC will reject a claim made
with an EW and any non approved GPS. You could, in
theory, build a circuit to inject valid datum sentences
into the EW, but any OO who let you get away with it
shouldn't be an OO and it's more effort than just using
an approved GPS.

At 10:24 16 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:

Hehe, if there is no datum change from the GPS (like
in case of most
of the mouse type GPS) the final igc file will be the
same as if it were
from an approved Garmin. This is what I said. Yes,
it's against the
current rules, but who cares. Let's have their fun
with the valid igc file

/jancsika


Andrew Warbrick wrote:
Don't be misleading.

If someone tries to claim a badge using an EW and
a
'mouse type GPS' it will be rejected. The IGC approval
of the EW barographs requires the use of a GPS off
an approved list. The approved list GPS's output a
proprietary NMEA sentence for selected map datum which
is recorded by the logger to stop people displacing
turnpoints by changing map datum in flight.

I'm not saying this is the way it should be, there
is an argument for COTS loggers, but this is the way
it is, you can't claim a badge with an EW and just
any old GPS.

At 08:54 16 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:

ttaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:


I have old cameras you can have if you want them and
I have an EW-D
logger you can barrow if you would like to try some
badge flights. All
you need is a Garmin GPS to feed a signal to it.

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc
file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year.
Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing
has changed so
far

/Janos

Andrew Warbrick wrote:
I realise you are just trying to recruit disgruntled
pilots to the COTS cause. They will be disgruntled
because their NAC will have rejected their claim.

You are right more or less I do hate that we have to buy an
(otherwise fantastic) expensive tool for this purpose.

I'll say it again, clearer this time and using shorter
words. The EW will log with any GPS but it will only
make an IGC file valid for a badge claim with one of
the approved GPS's, your NAC will reject a claim made
with an EW and any non approved GPS. You could, in
theory, build a circuit to inject valid datum sentences
into the EW, but any OO who let you get away with it
shouldn't be an OO and it's more effort than just using
an approved GPS.


No, EW WILL create valid IGC file with any GPS provides (RMC, GGA)
NMEA sentences at 4800. EW could recognize if there is a change in datum
if you use a garmin, because garmin sends this information inside NMEA.
I can send samples if you need.
There is no need to create any special circuit.
And I think at least 99% of the OO will accept it.

/jancsika (finally a Colibri user)

Jancsika wrote:
ttaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:


I have old cameras you can have if you want them and I have an EW-D
logger you can barrow if you would like to try some badge flights. All
you need is a Garmin GPS to feed a signal to it.


Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year. Few enthusiastic pilot
joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing has changed so far

Like it, or not, if one wants to get a badge with an EW, one must use
one of the Garmin GPS units listed in the approval document...

Marc

Jancsika wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:


Cameras and mechanical barographs are quite suitable for badge
flights. You can buy a usable 35 mm cameras in any thrift store for a
dollar or so, then you just have to find an "old timer" with a
barograph to loan you. You may know a person like that already, and he
might be a good choice for an official observer. Since he owns one, he
probably knows the procedures for badges using cameras and barographs.


Yes, but there is hugh disadvantage. While I just fly over the turnpont
and turn after the beep, the camera user has to fly well over the
turnpont - bank the glider - realize that it was not enough - go a
but further again - bank again - take one or two pictures. It's valid
for all turnpoints including start sector.

I don't think this is a huge disadvantage for a badge flight, where
speed is not the essence of the flight. I used cameras for my badge
flights, and had very little trouble. Easily identifiable turnpoints
should be chosen, and the pilot should practice taking pictures locally
before making the badge flights. With this practice, it takes perhaps a
minute or so longer to do it than with a GPS. That's a maximum of two
minutes extra on an O&R, four minutes extra on a triangle flight. This
is not what will keep a new pilot from success.

If the pilot is navigating with a cheap GPS, it may not even take a
minute extra at the turnpoint, but perhaps 20 seconds, based on my
experience.

For record flights (especially speed), for small clubs where an official
observer may be hard to get just before the flight, and for the
convenience of the OO, a logger is very useful. For free turnpoint
flights and the OLC, of course, it is a requirement.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jancsika wrote:

ttaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:


I have old cameras you can have if you want them and I have an EW-D
logger you can barrow if you would like to try some badge flights. All
you need is a Garmin GPS to feed a signal to it.



Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year. Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing has changed
so far


Like it, or not, if one wants to get a badge with an EW, one must use
one of the Garmin GPS units listed in the approval document...

Marc

It's just funny to see the weakness of the system...
There is a good summary about other possibilities in Sailplane&Gliding
June-July page 53.

/Jancsika

Jancsika wrote:

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year. Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing has changed
so far



Like it, or not, if one wants to get a badge with an EW, one must use
one of the Garmin GPS units listed in the approval document...

Marc


It's just funny to see the weakness of the system...

It's my understanding the IGC file will NOT be fine if a mouse type GPS
is used, because it will be missing the NMEA sentence with the datum
that is in use. With a Garmin GPS, the sentence is not sent only when
the datum is changed, but with every data point.

I also suspect the Garmin GPS sends a sentence identifying itself, which
is recorded in the file, but I don't know that for sure. Perhaps Marc or
other knowledgeable person can comment?


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Jancsika wrote:

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year. Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing has
changed so far




Like it, or not, if one wants to get a badge with an EW, one must use
one of the Garmin GPS units listed in the approval document...

Marc



It's just funny to see the weakness of the system...


It's my understanding the IGC file will NOT be fine if a mouse type GPS
is used, because it will be missing the NMEA sentence with the datum
that is in use. With a Garmin GPS, the sentence is not sent only when
the datum is changed, but with every data point.

I also suspect the Garmin GPS sends a sentence identifying itself, which
is recorded in the file, but I don't know that for sure. Perhaps Marc or
other knowledgeable person can comment?



At startup some GPS sends (even a cheap mouse type could do it) this
data but to get a valid IGC file boot messages doesn't have to be in the
NMEA stream. I sent you one example (Vali-ewa.exe validated this).
Regards,

/Janos

At 06:24 20 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Jancsika wrote:

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc
file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year.
Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but
nothing has
changed so far




Like it, or not, if one wants to get a badge with
an EW, one must use
one of the Garmin GPS units listed in the approval
document...

Marc



It's just funny to see the weakness of the system...


It's my understanding the IGC file will NOT be fine
if a mouse type GPS
is used, because it will be missing the NMEA sentence
with the datum
that is in use. With a Garmin GPS, the sentence is
not sent only when
the datum is changed, but with every data point.

I also suspect the Garmin GPS sends a sentence identifying
itself, which
is recorded in the file, but I don't know that for
sure. Perhaps Marc or
other knowledgeable person can comment?



At startup some GPS sends (even a cheap mouse type
could do it) this
data but to get a valid IGC file boot messages doesn't
have to be in the
NMEA stream. I sent you one example (Vali-ewa.exe validated
this).
Regards,

/Janos


Here we go again. Vali-ewa.exe only checks the hash
of the file against the G line, if there are no datum
records in the file your OO or the NAC's badge secretary
should reject the claim.