VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION

On May 3, 4:03 pm, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 2:58 pm, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 2:15 pm, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 11:35 am, Vince wrote:
TMO
http://www.p-38online.com/recon.html
A quick and logical explanation for the death of the P-38, P-4 and P-5
was the birth of the U-2. Hardly likely that two such systems,
especially with the U-2's superior altitude performance, would co-
exist.
not really
The U2 was not suited for battlefield reconnaissance. USAF tried the
Canberra but it was a failure and then the RB-66 derived from the
skywarrior which was a success
Vince
They were used for that purpose in Cuba, one got shot down.
By October 19 the U-2 flights (then almost continuous) showed four
sites were operational.
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2
Cuba was not a "battlefield"
Vince
Tell that to the guys who flew over it.
President Kennedy's favorite photograph of all those taken during the
Cuban crisis was shot with the camera displayed at the museum on Nov.
10, 1962 (from less than 500 feet altitude at a speed of 713 mph).
Clearly shown are Soviet-built SA-2 surface-to-air missiles in place
at launch sites. These defensive missiles protected offensive weapons
sites and posed a serious threat to U.S. reconnaissance aircraft. A
copy of this portion of the strip photo was mounted in the President's
office. Viewed with a stereoscopic projector, the features have a
three-dimensional effect. The pattern of dots surrounding several
launch sites are actually camouflage nets which were intended to
conceal the equipment positioned beneath them, but the strip camera
rendered them ineffective.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/fac...et.asp?id=1876
Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights

Vince

Air Force.http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/1295valor.asp

Good spies are never detected only suspected. Name me a spy who was
shot by the other side. Usually it's your own people doing Penkovskii
and his like in so they can't remember anything later.

the pilots were airforce but the flights were CIA. They were reported
by the CIA

The track of the mission approved on 9 October was plotted to include
coverage of the San Cristóbal trapezoid. The overflight did not actually
occur until 14 October, owing to inclement weather forecasts and the
time needed to train an air force pilot in the intricacies of the more
powerful U-2s operated by the CIA.[79] But eventually, Maj. Richard
Heyser piloted the U-2 that took 928 photographs in six minutes over an
area of Cuba that had not been photographed for 45 days.[80] The film
was rushed to Suitland, Maryland, for processing and arrived at NPIC on
the morning of 15 October. Shortly before 4:00 p.m., the CIA
photo-interpreter on a team of four analysts announced, "We've got MRBMs
[medium range ballistic missiles] in Cuba."[81] It was a "moment of
splendor" for the U-2, its cameras and film, and the photo-interpreters,
as Sherman Kent later put it, if not the CIA's finest hour of the Cold
War.[82] The president issued blanket authority for unrestricted U-2
overflights on 16 October, and the missile crisis commenced in earnest.

https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol4...hoto_Gap_2.htm

"On the morning of October 14, 1962, a U-2 aircraft, piloted by Air
Force Major Richard D. Heyser, flew a reconnaissance mission over the
western part of Cuba, flying from south to north. The 928 photographs
obtained during the 6-minute flight over the island produced the first
verified evidence of the existence of Soviet offensive missile sites in
Cuba. Analysis and interpretation of the photographs at the National
Photographic Intelligence Center revealed that three medium-range
ballistic missile sites were being developed near San Cristobal, in
Pinar del Rio province. Photo analysts counted eight large MRBM
transporters at the three locations and four erector launchers in
tentative firing positions. Two further U-2 missions, flown on October
15 by pilots of the Strategic Air Command, revealed a fourth MRBM site
near San Cristobal, and two intermediate-range ballistic missile (IRBM)
sites were discovered at Guanajay. Photos also revealed 21 crates for
Soviet IL-28 Beagle medium-range bomber aircraft at San Julian airfield.
(Chronology of Air Force Actions During the Cuban Crisis, 14 October-30
October 1962; USAF Historical Division Liaison Office, pages 11-12)

At 8:30 p.m. on October 15 CIA Deputy Director Carter reported to
McGeorge Bundy the hard evidence of the MRBM's, but the President's
Special Assistant decided not to notify the President that evening. In a
memorandum to the President, dated March 4, 1963, Bundy explained his
reasons for this decision: "

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba016.htm

On October 10, NSA reported that the Cuban air defense system seemed to
be complete. They had just begun passing radar tracking from radar
stations to higher headquarters and to defensive fighter bases using
Soviet procedures. Their system, with Russians in advisory positions at
every point, was ready for business. It was into this defensive thicket
that a CIA U-2 flew four days later. Although it survived, on October 25
another U-2 was shot down.

http://www.nsa.gov/publications/publi00033.cfm

Vince

The analysis was CIA, the collection was by the Air Force. "The other
U-2" was Air Force

President John F. Kennedy directed Strategic Air Command to begin U-2
high-altitude reconnaissance flights over the island. The U-2 flights
were made by Major Anderson and Maj. Richard S. Heyser and were
supplemented later by low-altitude RF-101 coverage.

On Oct. 27, while negotiations between President Kennedy and Premier
Khrushchev were still under way, Major Anderson's U-2 was shot down by
an SA-2 missile and he was killed. By personal direction of the
President, Major Anderson was posthumously awarded the first Air Force
Cross. (By regulation, the Bronze Star was then the highest combat
decoration that could be made for Cold War action.) The photographs
provided by him and other Air Force pilots had rallied worldwide
support behind the US refusal to allow Soviet nuclear-armed missiles
in the western hemisphere.

I have seen pictures of kennedy down on the carpet in one of his
offices, looking at the large blow-up of the U-2 camera take with a
magnifying glass. At one point he found a missile sticking out from
under a canopy and was faithfully recorded with an ID.

Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 11:35 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 10:55 am, "TMOliver" wrote:
"Daryl Hunt" wrote ...
Speaking of Doofus's and you show up. One person already showed
two links
that they were around as camera ships in the Actives up until
1959. But
don't let the facts get in the way of becoming a contributing
member of
the
404thk00ks. You live it down well.
No, they haven't. There were, unless you can find a competent
cite, one
with any hint of factual nature, no P-38 derived photo birds in
service in
1959 or in the years immediastely preceding. You don't seem to
comprehend
that P-38s were quick to leave the service because there were in
inventory,
both for conventional and photo missions literally thousands of
more capable
a/c gathering dust until Korea, and even Korea's needs were not
great enough
to summon elderly photo birds with less speed and range than the P-51
derivatives used for low altitude work. As late as 1957, there
may have
been a couple of TB-25s around for station "hack" service in the
Training
Command, and B-26s (NA, Not Martin), were still in ANG service (and
used by
the CIA/Cuban force strikes connected with the Bay of Pigs), but
you're
going to have to "show" us P-38s somewhere other than in your
agaonized
dreams before anybody will believe you...
To say that you are full of **** remains grotesque understaement.
You're
simply clueless, fallen well over the edge into "wackodom". You
ought to be
ashamed of yourself (in fact, probably would be, were you not too
simple
minded to comprehend that you've been emabarrassed so often as to
have all
potential credibility.
TMO
http://www.p-38online.com/recon.html
A quick and logical explanation for the death of the P-38, P-4 and P-5
was the birth of the U-2. Hardly likely that two such systems,
especially with the U-2's superior altitude performance, would co-
exist.
not really
The U2 was not suited for battlefield reconnaissance. USAF tried the
Canberra but it was a failure and then the RB-66 derived from the
skywarrior which was a success

Vince

They were used for that purpose in Cuba, one got shot down.
By October 19 the U-2 flights (then almost continuous) showed four
sites were operational.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2


Cuba was not a "battlefield"

Vince

Oh? Tell that to the guys who went ashore at the Bay of Pigs.

--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/

TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
. ..
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 11:35 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 10:55 am, "TMOliver" wrote:
"Daryl Hunt" wrote ...
Speaking of Doofus's and you show up. One person already showed two
links
that they were around as camera ships in the Actives up until 1959.
But
don't let the facts get in the way of becoming a contributing member
of
the
404thk00ks. You live it down well.
No, they haven't. There were, unless you can find a competent cite,
one
with any hint of factual nature, no P-38 derived photo birds in
service in
1959 or in the years immediastely preceding. You don't seem to
comprehend
that P-38s were quick to leave the service because there were in
inventory,
both for conventional and photo missions literally thousands of more
capable
a/c gathering dust until Korea, and even Korea's needs were not great
enough
to summon elderly photo birds with less speed and range than the P-51
derivatives used for low altitude work. As late as 1957, there may
have
been a couple of TB-25s around for station "hack" service in the
Training
Command, and B-26s (NA, Not Martin), were still in ANG service (and
used by
the CIA/Cuban force strikes connected with the Bay of Pigs), but
you're
going to have to "show" us P-38s somewhere other than in your
agaonized
dreams before anybody will believe you...
To say that you are full of **** remains grotesque understaement.
You're
simply clueless, fallen well over the edge into "wackodom". You ought
to be
ashamed of yourself (in fact, probably would be, were you not too
simple
minded to comprehend that you've been emabarrassed so often as to have
all
potential credibility.
TMO
http://www.p-38online.com/recon.html
A quick and logical explanation for the death of the P-38, P-4 and P-5
was the birth of the U-2. Hardly likely that two such systems,
especially with the U-2's superior altitude performance, would co-
exist.
not really
The U2 was not suited for battlefield reconnaissance. USAF tried the
Canberra but it was a failure and then the RB-66 derived from the
skywarrior which was a success

Vince
They were used for that purpose in Cuba, one got shot down.
By October 19 the U-2 flights (then almost continuous) showed four
sites were operational.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2

Cuba was not a "battlefield"

I wouldn't want to tell that to the VFP-62 pilots flying low level photo
recon in RF8 Crusaders who (while certainly guilty of violating Cuban
airspace were being regularly fired upon with both 57mm and 23mm AA as the
transited missile sites flying "nap of the ground". The Soviets erecting
the sites seemed somewhat hostile toward being photographed.


The hostility of the environment is clear. However Reconnaissance in an
environment where you cannot openly protect your aircraft and are not
establishing targets is not a battlefield.

Vince

TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...

Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights

I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy flight
suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key West,
JAX or off CVA decks.

TMO


the U-2 flights were cia

Vince

On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote:
Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 11:35 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 10:55 am, "TMOliver" wrote:
"Daryl Hunt" wrote ...
Speaking of Doofus's and you show up. One person already showed
two links
that they were around as camera ships in the Actives up until
1959. But
don't let the facts get in the way of becoming a contributing
member of
the
404thk00ks. You live it down well.
No, they haven't. There were, unless you can find a competent
cite, one
with any hint of factual nature, no P-38 derived photo birds in
service in
1959 or in the years immediastely preceding. You don't seem to
comprehend
that P-38s were quick to leave the service because there were in
inventory,
both for conventional and photo missions literally thousands of
more capable
a/c gathering dust until Korea, and even Korea's needs were not
great enough
to summon elderly photo birds with less speed and range than the P-51
derivatives used for low altitude work. As late as 1957, there
may have
been a couple of TB-25s around for station "hack" service in the
Training
Command, and B-26s (NA, Not Martin), were still in ANG service (and
used by
the CIA/Cuban force strikes connected with the Bay of Pigs), but
you're
going to have to "show" us P-38s somewhere other than in your
agaonized
dreams before anybody will believe you...
To say that you are full of **** remains grotesque understaement.
You're
simply clueless, fallen well over the edge into "wackodom". You
ought to be
ashamed of yourself (in fact, probably would be, were you not too
simple
minded to comprehend that you've been emabarrassed so often as to
have all
potential credibility.
TMO
http://www.p-38online.com/recon.html
A quick and logical explanation for the death of the P-38, P-4 and P-5
was the birth of the U-2. Hardly likely that two such systems,
especially with the U-2's superior altitude performance, would co-
exist.
not really
The U2 was not suited for battlefield reconnaissance. USAF tried the
Canberra but it was a failure and then the RB-66 derived from the
skywarrior which was a success

Vince

They were used for that purpose in Cuba, one got shot down.
By October 19 the U-2 flights (then almost continuous) showed four
sites were operational.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2

Cuba was not a "battlefield"

Vince

Oh? Tell that to the guys who went ashore at the Bay of Pigs.

--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/

Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over
and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be
asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real
goof by the Air Force and Kennedy.

http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 4:03 pm, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 2:58 pm, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 2:15 pm, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 11:35 am, Vince wrote:
TMO
http://www.p-38online.com/recon.html
A quick and logical explanation for the death of the P-38, P-4 and P-5
was the birth of the U-2. Hardly likely that two such systems,
especially with the U-2's superior altitude performance, would co-
exist.
not really
The U2 was not suited for battlefield reconnaissance. USAF tried the
Canberra but it was a failure and then the RB-66 derived from the
skywarrior which was a success
Vince
They were used for that purpose in Cuba, one got shot down.
By October 19 the U-2 flights (then almost continuous) showed four
sites were operational.
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2
Cuba was not a "battlefield"
Vince
Tell that to the guys who flew over it.
President Kennedy's favorite photograph of all those taken during the
Cuban crisis was shot with the camera displayed at the museum on Nov.
10, 1962 (from less than 500 feet altitude at a speed of 713 mph).
Clearly shown are Soviet-built SA-2 surface-to-air missiles in place
at launch sites. These defensive missiles protected offensive weapons
sites and posed a serious threat to U.S. reconnaissance aircraft. A
copy of this portion of the strip photo was mounted in the President's
office. Viewed with a stereoscopic projector, the features have a
three-dimensional effect. The pattern of dots surrounding several
launch sites are actually camouflage nets which were intended to
conceal the equipment positioned beneath them, but the strip camera
rendered them ineffective.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/fac...et.asp?id=1876
Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights
Vince
Air Force.http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/1295valor.asp
Good spies are never detected only suspected. Name me a spy who was
shot by the other side. Usually it's your own people doing Penkovskii
and his like in so they can't remember anything later.
the pilots were airforce but the flights were CIA. They were reported
by the CIA

The track of the mission approved on 9 October was plotted to include
coverage of the San Cristóbal trapezoid. The overflight did not actually
occur until 14 October, owing to inclement weather forecasts and the
time needed to train an air force pilot in the intricacies of the more
powerful U-2s operated by the CIA.[79] But eventually, Maj. Richard
Heyser piloted the U-2 that took 928 photographs in six minutes over an
area of Cuba that had not been photographed for 45 days.[80] The film
was rushed to Suitland, Maryland, for processing and arrived at NPIC on
the morning of 15 October. Shortly before 4:00 p.m., the CIA
photo-interpreter on a team of four analysts announced, "We've got MRBMs
[medium range ballistic missiles] in Cuba."[81] It was a "moment of
splendor" for the U-2, its cameras and film, and the photo-interpreters,
as Sherman Kent later put it, if not the CIA's finest hour of the Cold
War.[82] The president issued blanket authority for unrestricted U-2
overflights on 16 October, and the missile crisis commenced in earnest.

https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol4...hoto_Gap_2.htm

"On the morning of October 14, 1962, a U-2 aircraft, piloted by Air
Force Major Richard D. Heyser, flew a reconnaissance mission over the
western part of Cuba, flying from south to north. The 928 photographs
obtained during the 6-minute flight over the island produced the first
verified evidence of the existence of Soviet offensive missile sites in
Cuba. Analysis and interpretation of the photographs at the National
Photographic Intelligence Center revealed that three medium-range
ballistic missile sites were being developed near San Cristobal, in
Pinar del Rio province. Photo analysts counted eight large MRBM
transporters at the three locations and four erector launchers in
tentative firing positions. Two further U-2 missions, flown on October
15 by pilots of the Strategic Air Command, revealed a fourth MRBM site
near San Cristobal, and two intermediate-range ballistic missile (IRBM)
sites were discovered at Guanajay. Photos also revealed 21 crates for
Soviet IL-28 Beagle medium-range bomber aircraft at San Julian airfield.
(Chronology of Air Force Actions During the Cuban Crisis, 14 October-30
October 1962; USAF Historical Division Liaison Office, pages 11-12)

At 8:30 p.m. on October 15 CIA Deputy Director Carter reported to
McGeorge Bundy the hard evidence of the MRBM's, but the President's
Special Assistant decided not to notify the President that evening. In a
memorandum to the President, dated March 4, 1963, Bundy explained his
reasons for this decision: "

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba016.htm

On October 10, NSA reported that the Cuban air defense system seemed to
be complete. They had just begun passing radar tracking from radar
stations to higher headquarters and to defensive fighter bases using
Soviet procedures. Their system, with Russians in advisory positions at
every point, was ready for business. It was into this defensive thicket
that a CIA U-2 flew four days later. Although it survived, on October 25
another U-2 was shot down.

http://www.nsa.gov/publications/publi00033.cfm

Vince

The analysis was CIA, the collection was by the Air Force. "The other
U-2" was Air Force

President John F. Kennedy directed Strategic Air Command to begin U-2
high-altitude reconnaissance flights over the island. The U-2 flights
were made by Major Anderson and Maj. Richard S. Heyser and were
supplemented later by low-altitude RF-101 coverage.


Heyser was clearly a cia flight



On Oct. 27, while negotiations between President Kennedy and Premier
Khrushchev were still under way, Major Anderson's U-2 was shot down by
an SA-2 missile and he was killed. By personal direction of the
President, Major Anderson was posthumously awarded the first Air Force
Cross. (By regulation, the Bronze Star was then the highest combat
decoration that could be made for Cold War action.) The photographs
provided by him and other Air Force pilots had rallied worldwide
support behind the US refusal to allow Soviet nuclear-armed missiles
in the western hemisphere.

I have seen pictures of kennedy down on the carpet in one of his
offices, looking at the large blow-up of the U-2 camera take with a
magnifying glass. At one point he found a missile sticking out from
under a canopy and was faithfully recorded with an ID.


the 'flights" were CIA

"Once the formerly villainous U-2 had been transformed, virtually
overnight, into a heroic tool, it was more than awkward for the
administration to admit that the CIA, in Helms’s words, had been
“enjoined to stay well away from what we called the business [western]
end of the island.”[92] Although no one inside the executive branch had
been exactly complacent, President Kennedy faced the uncomfortable
prospect of explaining why his administration had degraded the only
intelligence-gathering tool that was indispensable until it was almost
too late.[93] The photo gap also left the president vulnerable to
charges, reasonable or otherwise, that he had been taken in by the
Soviets’ elaborate deception, to a point where the administration had
even tried to foist a false sense of security onto the country.[94]"


Vince

Paul Elliot wrote:
Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:

Cuba was not a "battlefield"

Vince

Oh? Tell that to the guys who went ashore at the Bay of Pigs.

we were discussing the Cuban missile crisis


vince

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote:
Vince wrote:

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/

Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over
and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be
asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real
goof by the Air Force and Kennedy.

http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm


There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an
air force officer flying for the CIA

He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of
international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission.

Vince

On May 3, 4:13 pm, Vince wrote:
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
...
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 11:35 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 10:55 am, "TMOliver" wrote:
"Daryl Hunt" wrote ...
Speaking of Doofus's and you show up. One person already showed two
links
that they were around as camera ships in the Actives up until 1959.
But
don't let the facts get in the way of becoming a contributing member
of
the
404thk00ks. You live it down well.
No, they haven't. There were, unless you can find a competent cite,
one
with any hint of factual nature, no P-38 derived photo birds in
service in
1959 or in the years immediastely preceding. You don't seem to
comprehend
that P-38s were quick to leave the service because there were in
inventory,
both for conventional and photo missions literally thousands of more
capable
a/c gathering dust until Korea, and even Korea's needs were not great
enough
to summon elderly photo birds with less speed and range than the P-51
derivatives used for low altitude work. As late as 1957, there may
have
been a couple of TB-25s around for station "hack" service in the
Training
Command, and B-26s (NA, Not Martin), were still in ANG service (and
used by
the CIA/Cuban force strikes connected with the Bay of Pigs), but
you're
going to have to "show" us P-38s somewhere other than in your
agaonized
dreams before anybody will believe you...
To say that you are full of **** remains grotesque understaement.
You're
simply clueless, fallen well over the edge into "wackodom". You ought
to be
ashamed of yourself (in fact, probably would be, were you not too
simple
minded to comprehend that you've been emabarrassed so often as to have
all
potential credibility.
TMO
http://www.p-38online.com/recon.html
A quick and logical explanation for the death of the P-38, P-4 and P-5
was the birth of the U-2. Hardly likely that two such systems,
especially with the U-2's superior altitude performance, would co-
exist.
not really
The U2 was not suited for battlefield reconnaissance. USAF tried the
Canberra but it was a failure and then the RB-66 derived from the
skywarrior which was a success

Vince
They were used for that purpose in Cuba, one got shot down.
By October 19 the U-2 flights (then almost continuous) showed four
sites were operational.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2

Cuba was not a "battlefield"

I wouldn't want to tell that to the VFP-62 pilots flying low level photo
recon in RF8 Crusaders who (while certainly guilty of violating Cuban
airspace were being regularly fired upon with both 57mm and 23mm AA as the
transited missile sites flying "nap of the ground". The Soviets erecting
the sites seemed somewhat hostile toward being photographed.

The hostility of the environment is clear. However Reconnaissance in an
environment where you cannot openly protect your aircraft and are not
establishing targets is not a battlefield.

Vince

So the Navy low-level flights were also just CIA pilots in nNavy
flight suits?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cub...cri/photos.htm

Vince, I worked for CIA for four and a half years, I was right across
the hall from many of the people who did this work, the pilots were
Air Force, by Kennedy's request, the analysts were by and large CIA
people with a few DIA types thrown in, at a place called the National
Photographic Interpetation Center, NPIC.. All your belief doesn't make
Anderson a CIA officer, he was Air Force, the Air Force management
sold the idea of an Air Force Cross for him, the first in the Cold
War.

Live with it.

"Vince" wrote in message
. ..
[ SNIP ]
Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights

Vince

That's nitpicking. If two subs are playing hide and go seek during
"peacetime", or recce overflights are conducted over "non-hostile" territory
during "peacetime", it's still a battlefield. I don't believe the term
battlefield is formally defined in international laws of war...so most
people pragmatically assume it's a place where you could get shot at if you
do a certain thing.

When the US reinforced the Panama Canal Zone in 1988, there was no war. But
when the PDF tried little incursions, and we countered with combat patrols,
we certainly thought of the op area as a battlefield. I'm sure troops
stationed at the DMZ in Korea think of that area as one. And back in the day
when we did REINFORCEX's into Gitmo, it was quite difficult *not* to think
of the entire base as a battlefield...tower/fence guards die first, then the
minefields kill some Cubans (not anymore, though, not on the US side), then
an improvised base defence force delays the Cuban advance while evacuation
happens, while the artillery battery way down on Cable Beach shells away
frantically.

Considering where Cable Beach is
(http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=1...&t=h&z=17&om=1
.... you can clearly see the gun positions) in relation to the rest of Gitmo
(http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&...,0.316544&z=12
Cable Beach is on the promontory bottom centre) I often wondered exactly
what provision there was to evacuate *our* young asses once the Cubans had
overrun mainside, Leeward Point Field, and were overlooking and shelling and
mortaring McCalla field (which is actually a useable airstrip, because we
did so use it on occasion). I don't think there was a plan for that, to be
honest. :-)

AHS